Sean: 00:01 – Hi everybody and welcome to another edition of Two-Brain Radio with Sean Woodland. On today’s episode I speak with former CrossFit Games athlete and current coach at Invictus Fenway Steph Chung. First: Are you a stressed business owner who’s working too much and still struggling to make a profit? Do you want to grow your venture and reach the next level? Two-Brain business is here to help with a free 60-minute call. It’s not a sales pitch; it’s just an opportunity for you to get real, actionable advice from an expert who’s built a successful business. For one-on-one guidance on how to take your business to the next level, book your Free Help call today at twobrainbusiness.com. Steph Chung made her CrossFit Games debut in 2018 when she finished 35th overall. She’s also a three-time Meridian Regional athlete, and Steph has a pretty remarkable CrossFit journey that has taken her to the Middle East and now back home to Boston. We talk about her outstanding achievements attending Cornell University, how she taught pre-medical biology in Qatar and what the CrossFit community is like in the Middle East. Thanks for listening everyone. Steph, how you doing? Thank you so much for being here today.
Steph: 01:16 – I’m so good. Thank you for having me.
Sean: 01:18 – The first question I have for you before we get into anything is how is your dog doing?
Steph: 01:23 – Oh, that’s a great question to open with. She is wonderful. I actually don’t know where she—she’s usually right by my side, but I think she’s sleeping somewhere. She’s doing really well.
Sean: 01:30 – What kind of dog is she?
Steph: 01:30 – She’s an Australian shepherd.
Sean: 01:33 – How long have you had her?
Steph: 01:34 – We got her in March, in the end of March. Yeah, so she is almost a year. Her birthday is next month. We’re gonna get her a little doggie cake.
Sean: 01:47 – I love it. I’m a huge dog person, so anytime I talk to somebody who has a dog, I always have to bring that up. So that’s cool.
Steph: 01:54 – Well she’s doing really well. She loves being at the gym actually. She’s a really good gym dog.
Sean: 01:59 – Good. So let’s go back. You graduated magna cum laude from Cornell. How did you manage to pull that off?
Steph: 02:08 – Well, a lot of hard work. It’s funny cause when you’re in it at the time it doesn’t seem like anything crazy. Everyone’s working their butt off. Everyone’s studying a lot. So that’s kind of just what I did. It was what I was used to doing. And I was studying, I was doing research, and research was always something I was really passionate about. So being able to do it, I had a great mentor at Cornell. So I really enjoyed the research that I did and it seemed like a natural thing to write a thesis and present that.
Sean: 02:40 – What was your thesis on?
Steph: 02:43 – Well, it was based—it was researching the potential effects of magnesium deficiency in pregnant mothers and their fetuses. It is a bit of a sideline topic. The lab that I worked in studies magnesium—rather, they study iron, and kind of more major components. The things that we hear about more mainstream. There had been some interest in studying magnesium since there’s virtually no literature out there regarding what the effects are and yet it’s a vital component in our everyday metabolism, in adults anyways, but there’s almost nothing known about its effects on the development of the fetus. So there was a little bit of interest there. It was brought up in a lab meeting and Dr. Ryan basically said, if anyone wants to take this on, we’re open to it, but know that you’re kind of going into a black hole. There’s just nothing there. So we had the data, we had a lot of data from pregnancy studies. And so I decided to take it on as my thesis.
Sean: 04:00 – What was it about that that intrigued you?
Steph: 04:06 – I was interested in knowing how it affected the fetus because we know that it’s so vital for adults, magnesium. We know that it’s a cofactor for hundreds of enzymes in the adult body, and most people are not getting enough magnesium and particularly the studies that were conducted by this lab were on teen mothers. So we knew from surveys they weren’t eating very healthy, nutritious food, which to me said that they would have many micronutrient deficiencies and one of them would definitely be magnesium since you really only find that in leafy greens in any substantive amount. So I wanted to know if there was just something that was being overlooked when we did kind of math analyses of the data. Something that we weren’t seeing because we weren’t looking specifically for magnesium. We were looking for iron and ferritin and the kind of the bigger micronutrients, if you will.
Sean: 05:12 – You mentioned that everybody at Cornell is doing hard work and everyone’s smart and I’m guessing all of them came from a situation where they were probably top of their classes in their high schools. What was it like being surrounded by that many gifted, smart people?
Steph: 05:24 – It was very cool and very humbling. So it’s a very unique environment in that way. Everyone’s the top of their class, everyone’s smart, everyone is really passionate about what they’re studying. So it was very interesting to talk to people who were on that level. They wanted to study because they wanted to be smarter. And you know, you had just ve
ry passionate people who were trying to pursue that in different ways. So every—not every conversation, but a lot of conversations took a turn to be something very educational that I wouldn’t have maybe been able to discuss with other people. But then again, everyone’s very normal. So you can have also a normal interaction with someone who you know is quite intelligent.
Sean: 06:19 – OK. What did you get your degree in there again?
Steph: 06:23 – Biology. It was biological sciences. And I had an a minor in human nutrition.
Sean: 06:29 – OK. So after you graduate, you moved to Doha, Qatar, and why did you make that decision to—I mean, that’s a huge life change.
Steph: 06:40 – Yes. It was. I was set on the track to go to medical school, so all of my undergraduate degree, I hung in there through the freshman warnings of like, we’re going to lose about 75% of you. And then through senior year people saying, well, maybe not medical school, maybe Ph.D.. So I made it through all of that. I took my MCATs and I realized all of a sudden that if I were headed down that path, I would be in school for the next foreseeable future, eight years, 10 years, depending on what I wanted to specialize in. And I wanted some break away from school. I wanted some other experience to enrich my young life essentially. So I knew that I wanted to work. I didn’t want to just travel. But I did want to travel. So I applied to normal jobs; I applied to some in New York, some in Boston, and they were all research positions, very interesting things that I would have loved to do and pursue. But I heard about this opportunity through a blast email at Cornell. They send these emails to undergrads and basically say, if anyone’s interested in moving abroad, it’s in Qatar. We have a sister campus for our medical school there and you’ll be a teaching assistant for the pre-medical students. So I was very interested by it and I had a connection who had come out of the program. And so I talked to her about what it looked like. She was a Ph. D. candidate or a post doc, I can’t remember, at Cornell, so she had gone over and come back, and she raved about it. So I got a little bit more information and I decided that I wanted to apply and there were only a few positions, so I thought it was actually highly unlikely that I would be one of them to get accepted. But I did and it just seemed like too good and too unique of an opportunity to pass on.
Sean: 08:43 – What was it like moving that far away from friends and family and everybody you grew up with?
Steph: 08:49 – It was scary, for sure, but I think that the excitement of it all took away a little bit of the edge. It was only meant to be for nine months. So it wasn’t meant to be for forever. So it was a very temporary thing. The university did a really great job of taking care of us. They handled almost every aspect of our entry and exit. They provided us with a car, an apartment. So there was really not much that I had to find on my own, which was a really great thing to have. It wasn’t like moving abroad and having to work out where you were going to live and how you would get to work and all that. So scary, but also exciting. My parents were so excited for me. They were super supportive.
Sean: 09:37 – You go from being a student to now being a teacher. How did you make that transition so quickly?
Steph: 09:43 – Well, I’ve always really loved to teach and I’ve loved to tutor, so that was somewhat easy for me. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the work. And I was passionate, I mean really passionate, about what I taught. So in a way it felt like an extension of being a student. I got to learn in a different aspect. I got to learn how to bring information together and make it into something that other people wanted to learn and study as well.
Sean: 10:16 – Now, I read that you were part of training the first group of homegrown doctors from Qatar. What was that like for you?
Steph: 10:27 – It was a very cool opportunity. So by the time I was TA-ing there, the program had been running for 10 years, I believe, they were celebrating their 10th anniversary. So they had established certain protocols, certain things in the curriculum that they needed to hit. But in a lot of other ways, there was a lot of flexibility in how can we adapt this to be more relevant? How can we adapt this to something that’s really gonna help the students go into med school? And so it felt like there was a lot of—the professors were really open to us giving feedback, and I actually got to write some new curriculum because I thought it would be interesting. We completely revamped the second semester of biology for them in the second year I was there. So it was very innovative and all the students were so excited because they felt like they were on the edge of something.
Sean: 11:29 – What did you learn about yourself from that whole experience?
Steph: 11:34 – I learned that I really love to teach. I really loved it. I don’t know that I would want to be a professor. So that was one possibility that I was playing with, is academia. I really liked what I did, but I wasn’t certain that I wanted to do that for forever. Some mix of practical application and also teaching was what I steered more towards.
Sean: 12:01 – Why did you decide to now stay beyond, I guess kind of your, I don’t want to say, contract is the wrong word, but after your job there was basically done,
Steph: 12:11 – Right. So I taught for the year that my original contract was for and then I decided to, in that year, essentially, I don’t know if I want to go to medical school, I don’t know if I want to practice medicine in the conventional sense. And at this point I had already applied to medical school and it just—all of a sudden I was questioning that. So when I spoke with the professors I worked for, they actually encouraged me to maybe take another year and think about it and decide if it was something that I wanted to do or if there was another path that I might want to take. And so I re-signed that contract. They were nice enough to bring me back on for a second year. And that’s when I decided that I didn’t want to go to medical school and I wasn’t exactly sure what I did want to do. I’d spent so many years trying, studying, focusing on going to medical school. So, I stayed at that job because I liked the job and I wasn’t exactly sure what I was leaving for, but it’s also a great place to live over there. It surprises a lot of people to hear that, but it’s a very easy place and a nice place to live. So it just caught me.
Sean: 13:27 – What was the thing that you went through in your head that made the determination that you didn’t want to go to med school anymore?
Steph: 13:37 – It was a combination of many things. One was that I was hearing some feedback that working with patients wasn’t quite what it was when we had decided to pursue medicine, in that you don’t get as much time with your patients. You don’t necessarily get to choose your patients, you’re not helping them in the sense of helping them fix the root of the problem. You’re more masking it by trying to give them the quickest fix, which I’ve never believed was the right approach anyways. So imagining doing that every day didn’t seem like it would fulfill my desire to help people and help really impact their health. And at the same time I was starting to become a little bit more dedicated in CrossFit and learn more about what it was teaching people about how to change their health through fitness and nutrition. And that seemed like a very tangible, and it still is a very tangible way of impacting people at the start, you know, from the foundations before they get sick.
Sean: 14:49 – Right. How did you find CrossFit?
Steph: 14:52 – It happened by chance actually. So when I was in college, I came home for a summer and I was on the gymnastics team, the club gymnastics team at Cornell. And by senior year I was just really tired of training by myself over the summers, but I had to stay in shape. And so previously I’d been going
to globo gym and it was really boring. I hated it. I would just sit on the treadmill and leave after two hours feeling I did nothing. And so my mom—a CrossFit gym opened in town, it’s Spencer Hendel’s gym, Reebok CrossFit Medfield, five minutes from my house and my mom said like, go try, they have a free trial, if you hate it, you never have to go back. But like maybe just go try a class. So I dragged my brother with me, poor guy, because I didn’t want to go by myself and we did a class and it was really great. I don’t actually remember what was in the class, but I know we did box jumps. It was either AMRAP or EMOM-style, something that was really fast. And I had never picked up a barbell before. I had to ask like how to hold it. And I had never jumped on a box like that before, and it was really cool. I liked the fact that it challenged me in almost every aspect and I had to learn so many different things. So through senior year I kept going. There was a box near Cornell. So, I kept going when I was there and I was a traditional class athlete.
Sean: 16:17 – We’ll be back with more from Steph Chung after this.
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Sean: 17:50 – When did you figure out, “You know what, I’m actually pretty good at this”?
Steph: 17:54 – It didn’t happen for a little bit. So it was pretty much after I moved to Doha because I started working with Rob, who’s my husband now, and through college I was really focused on gymnastics. So CrossFit was just a way to keep me interested and conditioned and I really liked it, but I wasn’t really sold on the lifting heavy. I was a terrible class CrossFitter. We joke with the guys who—so Tim Paulson was my coach and Eamon Coyne back then, and we joke that I was everything that I would hate in a class member now. Like I would show up late, I would cherry pick the classes based on what the workout was. I never wanted to add any weight to the bar. So it did take a little bit for me to really buy into constantly varied. You know, I liked the gymnastics movements, I liked the cardio aspect of it, and I wasn’t huge on lifting. I used the excuse of like, I don’t want to get bulky for gymnastics. I need to just like stay little. But then when I moved to Doha, I had nothing else. I didn’t have gymnastics. And there’s really not a whole lot to do there. So the CrossFit gym was walking distance from my apartment. So I would go to work, go straight to the gym and then come back and spend hours there. And when I met Rob, he joked basically that [unintelligible] productive. So I think he watched me do one qualifier workout with snatches and toes-to-bar, and the toes-to-bar were like nothing and the snatches were terrible. And so he said, you know, if you actually want to spend some time, we can work on this stuff. And so we did. And he jokes that the first time he really thought like she can be OK at this is when he saw me do kipping pull-ups. Cause back then in Qatar, no one had kipping pull-ups like off the bat. But once we started working together a little bit, I think that’s when I realized like, oh, maybe I could actually compete in this, at least locally within the Middle East community. Seeing the other people who were competing and how we worked out together, it seemed like a possibility to at least stay local.
Sean: 20:17 – What was the CrossFit scene like there?
Steph: 20:22 – It was really new when I moved there. There were two boxes when I first got there, and one had grown out of the other one. So you either trained with one or the other; they were on opposite sides of town and it was really new. So it was mostly ex-pats. I remember a lot of people didn’t know what CrossFit was in general, in the country. It was just kind of coming to the Middle East. Dubai was a little bit ahead of Doha. But it’s grown so much in the past couple of years. I obviously haven’t been there in years, but we have friends who we’ve seen who say it’s now grown into many more boxes and everyone knows what CrossFit is. So it’s really cool to hear that it’s grown like that. But when I got there, it was very small, just at the beginning.
Sean: 21:20 – You go from someone who thought she could just compete locally to now all of a sudden you’re on the Regional stage. What was it like to you to finally you’ll make it to that level?
Steph: 21:30 – So in 2015, 2016, that was all I wanted, was to get to Regionals. So once I did a couple local competitions—I always liked to have a goal, something I trained for. So that was the new goal then. And in 2015 I missed it by one spot. And I actually went, ’cause we had already planned a trip over the summer to go. And so we went and watched and I remember there were two lanes for whatever reason that were open. And I just sat there the whole weekend looking at those lanes saying like, that’s my lane, that’s where I should be. That’s where I belong. And so I worked so hard for the next season, and in 2016 when I made it, I was just happy to be there. I didn’t have any expectations of placement or what was gonna happen. I was just showing up and having fun.
Sean: 22:28 – At what point did you think, you know what? I think I might be able to make the Games.
Steph: 22:33 – I don’t know if I ever really thought that. It was a goal, kind of the same thing as Regionals was where I was saying, I don’t really just want to show up anymore. I want to really compete and really do my best. But I tried not to put it in such a specific goal. I just really wanted to do my best at Regionals, being my third year there. That was—the first year I was there and I was having fun. I was really enjoying it, but there was literally no expectation because the deadlift and the run-GHG-deadlift workout was my 1RM when it was announced. And the snatch ladder went above my 1RM. The workouts were very, very hard for me, in short. So there was no expectation. It was just be on the floor, get the experience. The second year I went in with too much expectation, feeling like now it was my second year, I had to prove something. And that pressure I put on myself wasn’t realistic and it wasn’t productive. So going into the third year I really said like, I want to enjoy this experience, but I also want to come out of it knowing that I did my best and not beating myself up for things that could have been.
Sean: 23:57 – Right. And that year, in 2018, you are able to make it to the Games and you had to pull off a pretty amazing comeback in order to do it. What stands out to you about that whole experience?
24:11 – Just believing in myself. I think that was the big thing. The power of positivity. I think that I’ve—I have stated in the past that it was, you know, not looking at the leaderboard, not focusing on my placement and all that, but I think that that was really a surrogate for not having an excuse to be mad at myself for anything. Day One was not a good one for me. And we went in knowing that, I practiced the workouts. I did better in competition than I had in practice on both of them, but it still wasn’t clearly phenomenal. And I think if I had looked at the leaderboard, it would’ve given me an excuse to beat myself up for that. Even though without looking at the leaderboard, I came away thinking, wow, I did so great. I did better than I practiced. So I knew it wasn’t going to be great because of my heat placement, obviously, the next day. But, I took away from that weekend just that positivity really works. And if you just focus on yourself, then it can take you; you kind of trust your own training and it can take you pretty far.
Sean: 25:20 – You wind up, speaking of going pretty far, you wind up in Madison, Wisconsin that year to compete at the CrossFit Games alongside the fittest women on Earth. What did you learn from that experience?
Sean: 25:33 – That was also very humbling. There’s some very fit people in this world. But it was great. Everyone was really nice. They’re all there to compete, but in the end there’s a little bit of solidarity as well, it’s something that you’re going through together. And I loved being able to compare myself to the fittest people in the world. It was a little disappointing because I had a broken ankle, so I was also kind of dealing with that complication and that’s the one thing that I wish had gone differently. It was not in my control, but I wish I had been really able to test myself against that field of women rather than having to accommodate something else.
Sean: 26:22 – Why did you make the decision to move back to the United States?
Steph: 26:27 – It was something that Rob and I had been talking about for a while. We knew that once we got married, we wanted to come back to the US. The Middle East is, like I said, it’s a great place to live and we loved it for the time that we were there, but it never felt permanent for us. Some people, they kind of do get that sense of permanence. They feel like it becomes home in a sense, and it never felt like that for us. So once we had decided, we kind of made a plan, an exit strategy and a plan of when we would want to move and what we’d want to do and come back for, and we finally made that happen.
Sean: 27:07 – So you’re now a coach at Invictus Fenway. What do you enjoy most about that?
Steph: 27:12 – The community. The community’s really cool. The coaches are all awesome. They’re all very passionate about what they do. And I’m learning things from them every day. And the members are really awesome as well. We have some really, really driven members, people who just want to get very fit, who are so willing to learn, which I love. That’s my favorite kind of person to work with, is the one who wants to learn.
Sean: 27:34 – How does your experience teaching in a classroom setting help you when you’re in the gym?
Steph: 27:42 – They’re very similar. I always tell people this. They say you had a big career switch between academia and coaching. And I feel like it’s very similar. It’s teaching, it’s just a different way. Sometimes it’s hard for me not to over-explain, I think that’s part of it too, is I want to explain the mechanics behind everything and like why they should be doing this and that. And sometimes there’s not time and there’s not a need. So that’s a little bit different. But I do find it really similar and I think that’s why I love it so much.
Sean: 28:16 I- ask this a lot of high-level athletes who become coaches, but oftentimes athletes who are really good at something don’t make the best coaches because it just comes to them naturally. How do you relate to your clients who walk in the door who may not be the best athletes or even the best movers?
Steph: 28:35 – So I have learned—I have to say I’ve learned almost everything I know about coaching from Rob. I feel like I’m a good teacher in that basic aspect, but almost everything I’ve learned from teaching CrossFit and teaching movement in a physical sense, I’ve learned from him. So I actually really love working with new members now. That’s one of my favorite things, because even though some people think it’s really difficult to teach movement to people who don’t know how to move, it’s an interesting challenge for me because you just have to figure out how they think. And some people think proprioceptively, like I need to show them how they move. Some people learn by seeing, so you have to show them. Some people learn when you use analogies. So you have to relate it to something that they maybe know, so for me, that challenge and that aspect of working with new people is really great.
Sean: 29:35 – -What are the main lessons that Rob, your husband, has taught you about being a good coach?
Steph: 29:42 Always make people feel like you’re paying attention to them. And that’s just one thing that I really try. So even in a class of 20 people, you want to make sure that everyone leaves feeling like they got something that made a difference to them. Whether it’s the people who need a lot of help or the people who move so well that no one bothers to even help them. That’s one really important thing that I think makes a huge difference that he’s taught me, is everyone should leave saying that they got something useful out of that hour and that you made them feel like they were seen.
Sean: 30:23 – I know a lot of spouses who wouldn’t work well in sort of a, you know, coaching, sort of teaching relationship or they don’t want to listen to their spouse give them advice. How do the two of you make that work?
Steph: 30:34 – We have a lot of experience with it. He also coaches me. So, I work with Jami from The Training Plan on programming, but the great thing about having Rob around is that he’s there with eyes on every day. So if he sees that I’m doing something weird in my snatches, he’ll always point it out, if I’m having a bad ring muscle-up day, we’ll spend some time and break that down. So for me, it’s really important to have eyes on what I’m doing. That’s a huge aspect of my personal training. So, I respect his professional opinion so much in that aspect. I also really like to know what he has to say about coaching and if I ever have a tough situation where I don’t know how to scale something for someone or it’s a very unique workout, I always ask how, you know, how would he lesson plan it, how would he set up the room? And even when I think I’ve got a really good plan for something, he always has a better one. So I’m always learning.
Sean: 31:37 – I’m glad the two of you can work that out. Cause I know that that might be a—some people might come to blows over stuff like that. What are the things that you do to make sure that when your clients come to the gym that they’re going to have the best hour of their days?
Steph: 31:50 – I think in addition to really helping everyone, no matter what level they’re at, it’s giving them a positive spin and a positive attitude. So, you know, people come in every day, sometimes they had a great day at work, sometimes they had a terrible day at work, things in life bringing them down. Like I think that fitness and exercise should be about bringing something positive back to them. So we can’t rely on endorphins alone to do that. We have to infuse that into their experience. So, whether it’s always, you know, saying hi with a smile when they come into the gym, asking how things are going, if you can sense that they’re not in a good mood, being extra positive with them and their movement. And I think if we can help people leave the gym with that, kind of lifted from where they came in, then that’s going to be the best hour of their day and that’s what’s g
oing to keep them coming back.
Sean: 32:48 – I’m sure you’ve had plenty, but what would you say your proudest moment as a coach is?
Steph: 32:53 – Oh yeah, so many. It’s really hard to choose. I think it’s in general, it’s when things just click with a client. So something you’ve been working on for a long time and you can tell, you know, it’s frustrating. A lot of time maybe with an empty bar or body-weight drills, things like that. And all of a sudden it just comes together as one. I have a client, one specific one that comes to mind is a client Abu Dhabi who still does training with me, and she’s been trying to gain weight for a long time. She’s very thin naturally. And she hasn’t put on a lot of weight, but we just tested her back squat and her back squat is like almost double what her body weight is. So yeah, she just texted that and messaged me. So it’s really exciting to see that happen. I know that, you know, she wants to get stronger, she wants to lift heavier, but the body weight has been keeping her back. So progress.
Sean: 33:50 – What does your competitive future look like in a sport that has changed dramatically over the past two years? Year, I should say.
Steph: 34:00 – It has, it has. I still love to compete, so that I think that has to be the baseline of what we do. I still love to train as well, so I don’t think much will change for me. It definitely takes a little bit more planning, but luckily, I like to plan, so the planning aspect doesn’t scare me so much. I like the opportunity to compete individual and team. It’s not binary, which is nice. And I like the opportunity to pick the competitions that you want to go to. I will miss Regionals. Don’t get me wrong. I loved, loved, loved Regionals. But I think in the coming years there will be competitions that feel a lot like Regionals. We already saw a couple last season and I think it will only continue to get better from there. So I don’t think much will change. I will compete in Sanctionals this coming year. I’ll still train just as hard, and maybe if I get the opportunity to compete on a team, I’ll get that experience.
Sean: 35:07 – What will need to happen for you to look back on this upcoming season and say, you know what, that was a successful venture for me.
Sean: 35:16 – I think if I can come away from each competition saying that I went in as prepared as I could, I performed as well as I could ask myself to and that I had fun. Because I think the worst is having any one of those three feel like it fell short. It feels like not a wasted experience, but something that could have gone better. And they are things that are in your control. So, I’ve definitely gone to competitions where I didn’t go in as prepared as I should have and that felt like a huge lapse in effort in the gym. And I went to ones where I focused too much on what happened in competition, didn’t do my best, and then other ones where I did everything right and just didn’t enjoy the experience. And that also leaves kind of a sour taste in your mouth. So I think if I can hit those three things then then we’ll be good to go.
Sean: 36:12 – Well, Steph, I really appreciate you taking the time doing this and best of luck to you and best of luck to Rob as well, as you continue your CrossFit journeys.
Steph: 36:19 – Thanks so much. I appreciate it.
Sean: 36:21 – Big thanks to Steph Chung for taking the time to talk with me today. If you want to follow her on Instagram, you can find her at @stephchung2, that’s Steph Chung, the number two. Whether you’re an aspiring entrepreneur or a seasoned business owner, “Founder, Farmer, Tinker, Thief” by Chris Cooper will l show you what to do and how to avoid mistakes that can sink a business. Reader and gym owner Brendon Collins says, quote, “If you’re a business owner in the service industry, you must read this book,” end quote. Get your copy of the bestseller “Founder, Farmer, Tinker, Thief” on Amazon today. Thanks for joining us everybody. We’ll see you next time.