I need you to fill out your class attendance. No, not like that. Why aren’t you filling it out properly? Nope. Stop, stop. Carl, fill out your attendance properly. Do what I say. I have no idea how to give feedback to staff. I better call in an expert. Per Mattsson is here right after this.
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I’m Mike Warkentin and this is Two-Brain Radio. My guest today is Per Mattson all the way from Sweden. He’s a certified Two-Brain fitness business mentor gym owner. More importantly, he’s not afraid to provide feedback to staff members and he doesn’t freak out when they share their thoughts on his behavior. Per. Welcome to Two-Brain Radio. Do you think you could help gym owners give and receive better feedback today?
Thanks, Mike. Yeah, I definitely think so. At least I hope so.
Yeah. So let’s start with an important one and a really important distinction: feedback versus criticism. What’s the difference and why do so many people mistake, helpful feedback for an attack?
Yeah, I actually think that, you know, criticism its actually feedback, right? It’s just that it’s a tough kind of feedback. So any sort of communication around my performance is feedback and it could be bad feedback, which would be interpreted as criticism. Right? So I think the reason so many people get a bit defensive when they get to receive feedback or when people give them feedback, is that I think most people are not really used to it happening.
Yeah. I think you’re right. It’s funny because the word criticism has negative connotations so much so that people have to say constructive criticism when they’re trying to tell people that it’s not a bad thing and yet criticism isn’t, it doesn’t mean necessarily bad. It’s just like you said, it is feedback, but I’ve had, you know, I’ve done this myself too. Someone will tell me, Oh, I don’t like that. And immediately I start to feel like bad about it. Whereas, you know, and borrowing this from Colm O’Reilly our mindset training friend. You don’t have to feel bad about something if someone else doesn’t like a certain thing, like if I wrote something and someone doesn’t like it, that’s just an opinion. It doesn’t really affect me internally unless I let it. But it’s very interesting. Have you seen staff members take your feedback as criticism and kind of bristle and get upset about it?
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I think, you know, I think one of the reasons that people get a bit defensive or they feel that they are being attacked is that we don’t give feedback often enough. And we often wait until we have something that needs to improve. We always bring things up when, when people need to improve, instead of also giving a lot of feedback on things that are working really well.
Chris Cooper’s written about that so many times where if you’re reluctant to give feedback, and Chris has said that he is, I tend to be as well. You kind of let things crop up and until you’re mad and then you’re like, I’m mad about this and this and this and this. And then it does feel like an attack. And that’s really the fault of the owner of the business person for not giving that feedback sooner.
Yeah. I mean, it’s not OK if you want to be a leader to wait until you’re actually angry or frustrated or mad, you need to be really quick on bringing things up and talk about them as if it’s something normal, right? Because things like, people like us do things like this, right? We talk to each other in order to help each other grow because we want to deliver a great experience to our clients.
A good example and parallel in the gym operations setting is when gym owners want to change their schedules, their class schedules, and sometimes they’ll just do it because all these classes are all not full. So I’m going to change the schedule immediately. And clients can sometimes get upset with that. But if you tell clients that every quarter, you’re going to reevaluate your schedule and make adjustments to make it better for them, they expect that quarterly change in feedback, they’re prepared for it. And so that’s kind of an analogy for what you’re saying here. If you give regular feedback to your staff and they know it’s coming, they know that it’s not an attack, it’s just the regular operation of business, correct?
Yeah. Yeah. And then you will still have situations where people get, where they don’t like your feedback or when you perhaps even hurt them. I’ve had situations like that, but I guess that is going to happen. What you can do is you need to just try to solve that situation and perhaps apologize, talk about what just happened and what you could’ve done differently, and then try to move on because you need to practice. You need your reps, right? In terms of giving and receiving feedback,
We’re going to play with those reps later on in the show, a little bit of role play, but before we get to that, so the first tip is give regular feedback to your staff. Now let’s say, as a staff person or someone who’s listening, maybe isn’t good at accepting feedback. How does someone learn to adjust their mindset, to learn how to accept feedback without emotion or anger?
Oh yeah. From practice, first of all, I would say, but I also think this is really hard because this comes with implementing a feedback culture, and that can take time based on what experiences people have before coming into your gym and working with you, other experiences with teachers or with coaches or with other bosses. So it’s really hard to answer that question, but I think it starts with you as an owner saying that you want to implement the feedback culture and that you’re going to work really hard on it. And the reasons why. I think that it starts with them.
- So you established basically the ground rules are you say, this is what I want to have here. I want to have an open environment where people can talk and suggest things for improvement, because we ultimately all want the same thing, to make this business better, serve our clients better. Right. So you start with that. And then I think probably, you know, you said you have to lead from the front. You definitely, as an owner, have to be prepared to accept some feedback. So you in your blog series that we’re going to link to in the show notes, you talked about some questions that, you know, you could ask people to start conditioning yourself as an owner to receive feedback and set the tone. Can you tell me some of those questions? Because I thought this was a really interesting exercise and man, it made me feel scared when I was reading some of them.
Yeah, of course. Yeah. And I think, you know, perhaps it should feel a bit scary every now and then, or at least you should be a bit nervous every now and then, because as a leader, you want to know how people experience you. Right. So you should be inviting feedback. And I have some really good questions here that you can use. I’m just going to go through them and see what you think about them. All right. So number one would be, what have I done that has had the most positive impact on you or your team? OK. All right. So that gives the other person an opportunity to be a bit specific on actions that you have taken that has really helped them.
And it was an easy in, easy start, because you’re asking for something positive. It’s like, don’t tell me I suck. This is actually, I want something good here.
Yeah. But it’s the same psychology as the bright spots you need to start with. I mean, as I said, feedback should be given around both positive and negative things. I guess. Another good question would be what is energizing about working with me?
So you start to realize the things that you’re doing to fire up your staff members and what they feed off of it.
Yeah. And the general rule also here with the question is that this is not yes or no questions because it’s not a question if, whether I’m energizing or not, the question is what is energizing and working with me. Right.
And that’s a rule for podcasts too. I can’t ask you yes or no questions have to ask you how, what and why. So you talk, right?
Yeah. All right. So I’m just going to go on here. Which of my projects or what role do you think I am most successfully? And what about it is it that works well from your point of view?
That’s a good one.
That’s a good one. OK. So here comes another one that could be sort of directed towards more negative feedback, what habit could or should I erase and why?
Yeah. So that way you might get, like, you need to shower more, you know?
Yeah. Or perhaps, you know, I think, you know, it could be something like, you always bring important things up on the fly. So that stresses me out or something like that. Right.
As you’re reading these, I’m thinking about asking them of my wife and man I’d be scared for some of the answers.
Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, imagine the positive effects in the long run.
Right? It could help us.
Yeah. All right. You want some more?
Give me a few more.
- So what was my most significant mistake or misstep this year and what could I have done to handle this situation differently?
Wow. So let me ask you, have you ever asked these questions of your staff and like, are they scared to answer because they’re criticizing the boss?
I actually, I have asked variations of them. Yes. Because I have always been very feedback oriented as a person. So, you know, when I was a teacher or when I was a principal or when I’m coaching the soccer team, or when I’m doing a class, I always ask people like, so how did I do today? Or what could I have done better? Or what things do you think are what’s doing good today? Stuff like that. So I think it’s so important to ask questions like this and really dig into my qualities as a leader.
Do you have to say to them, like, we’re in the sharing tree here, like it’s OK to criticize me, I’m asking for it and it will help me. And they’re like, OK, well, you know, and then they unload with you?
Yeah. Yeah. Often when you sit down one-on-one I think most people, they don’t have any problems giving you clear and specific feedback when you ask for it.
Yeah. And like you said, if you, if you have a feedback culture, then it doesn’t surprise them. So maybe the first time they’re scared, but the second time it’s easier and so forth. And we’ll get to that feedback culture. Well, maybe give me two more questions. I think pick your two favorite of the last ones that you got.
- I’m going to pick one who is, well, like I call it like an extra question for the brave ones, but I’m going to save that to last. Yep. So before that we can try this one. What new skill do I need to take my performance to the next level?
That would be such a great opportunity. You know, if they said, Hey, you could do a little bit better with your public speaking, that would connect with members better, or maybe it would be great if you didn’t make so many mistakes in our paychecks and, you know, improve your data entry skills. Like that’s a real opportunity to improve yourself as a business owner and a leader.
Exactly, exactly. And I think, you know, imagine if you ask questions like this to your staff members regularly, the amount of input and information that you can have in order to grow as a leader is massive, right? So not only is it going to help you as an owner, as a leader, it’s also going to help build trust in your team. Your staff members are going to see that this guy is willing to change in order to be a better leader for me.
I love it. So hit me now with the last one there, the “scary one.”
Right? So that would be something like this. On a scale from one to 10, how would you grade the quality of our relationship right now?
That’ be interesting. What if someone gives you like a three, you know, it’s like scary.
So the good thing about using scale questions is that when they give you a number, then you can start digging into that. Right. So, OK. So tell me why did you put me on a five or a seven or an eight? So that you get a lot of specific feedback and then you can ask, so what would it take for me to jump up to an eight or a nine.
And even better I think like later on, when you have this conversation again, you can use that same rating system, and then you can tell if you’ve gotten better or worse and you get feedback. So you’ve taken this like emotional kind of mystical experience and you’ve quantitized it so that you can actually measure improvement.
Oh, wow. That’s really cool. So like, yeah. Have you used that question yourself?
Oh man. Did you ever get any low ratings?
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So, yes, you know, as I said, I have been a principal. You get low ratings when you’re a principal, because you can’t please everyone in a system like that. So I am really used to receiving feedback throughout my life. And I think sometimes it’s frustrating, of course, and most often when you get lower ratings, I think the pattern has been that my relationship to that person or that group hasn’t been that good from the beginning. So we don’t really know each other yet, or I haven’t spent enough time with them or that person. So that is often the reason, it’s not based on poor performance from my side. Often it’s more based on, they don’t really know me and my leadership, so they don’t really feel confident or comfortable. And when they don’t really know, then they give me lower ratings. That’s my experience.
- So listeners give that one a try. That’s a very interesting question that’s going to give you some feedback and allow you to measure your improvement. So I recommend that you try that question and if you’re a little bit nervous about it, start with some of the easier ones first, but that is a really, really insightful question that you can ask and measure your improvement so far. Let’s talk a little bit more about feedback culture. So we talked about a little bit about at the beginning, what are some other tips gym owners can use to implement and create and nurture a feedback culture at their gyms?
Well, I think, as I said, the first step would be just to, if that is important for you, and if it’s important for you to have a culture like that, you need to say it and you need to talk to your team about positive effects of implementing a feedback culture like that. So what do you think we could achieve if we had more feedback flowing among us and we could share more success stories and we could be more brave and give constructive criticism, et cetera. So you need to bring it up and talk about it and let your staff members talk about potential worries that they have.
It sounds like that relates to the mission and vision of your business.
Of course, yes. Very similar, right?
You’re getting people on the right page, right? Like where you’re saying we’re all going in this direction because we all agree that this is important. Let’s make it better through feedback. I love that.
So the interesting thing here is that it’s very hard for someone to say no to a feedback culture when you talk about all the positive effects and we have this stated in our staff playbook, and we say that we are always going to be open. And if I see someone doing something, I should always give feedback, et cetera, et cetera. And everyone says, yes, this is great. But then the next step is when you start, when you really end up in situations where feedback would be needed, that is when it gets scary, right? So you need to really follow up as an owner. If, I for instance, have a staff member coming to me and they want to talk about another staff member, something that that coach did on the floor or whatever. My question back to the person would be OK.
So how did you address it? Did you talk to that coach before coming to me? And if they say no, then you know that you still have a lot to work on when it comes to feedback culture. Right.
It is. So I don’t know. It’s like being a parent. When the kids always need you to solve the conflict, et cetera, you need to be a very active parent and you need to go in there and discipline them. Right. But, you don’t want to be in that role with your staff members. Sometimes I use that parallel and, you know, do you really need me acting as a parent between you guys here? Or can you sit down together and try to solve this if it’s a conflict or if it’s something that’s a bit scary, right?
It sounds like a lot of this relates to just communicating and as gym owners, we often forget to communicate with our staffs and our clients, but often we’ll start to communicate with our clients better than our staff members. But if you’re always communicating, you’re probably going to almost by accident develop that feedback culture, because you’re in constant contact with the most important people. I won’t say the most important people in your business because the clients are important, but the people who are directly responsible for making sure the clients are happy.
Yeah, exactly. And I think that we need to talk a lot about why we want to give each other feedback. There is a definition that I’m mentioning in my presentation for the summit in February and the definition of feedback would be an act of love in order to help someone grow.
So that doesn’t sound so scary.
It doesn’t, right? So if I’m in a team of coaches and I see a coach that would need some feedback, if I really want to help that person, if I really want to show him or her that I love that person as a team member, I would share that feedback. Right.
That’s that’s great. And before we go on, people who are interested in this, where can they hear you speak on this topic? You mentioned an event in February.
Yeah. On the Two-Brain Regional Day in February.
We’re going to get that link in the show notes for you. If you guys want to hear more about this from the great Mr. Mattson, you could definitely join in there. And, Colm O’Riley is also gonna be in there, our man from Ireland talking about mindset. So please click that link if you’re interested in learning more on this, it’s not just going to be a lecture. It’s going to be interactive. There will be things that you guys do and worksheets and all that, you will make progress in that event. All right, let’s go into some common mistakes that gym owners make. What are some of the things that they do wrong when it goes to feedback? And we talked about the big one, which is waiting until you’re angry and then just unloading. Is there anything else that gym owners often do wrong?
I do think that they don’t talk about feedback and why it is important with their staff. So they need to do that. They need to talk about it. And, you know, as I said, bring up potential positive effects to get everyone on board.
It’s not enough. I’m sorry to interrupt, but it’s not enough to just start giving feedback randomly. You have to explain why it’s important and why people should see it as a positive opportunity for growth and how it’s going to help them in the business rather than just saying change the toilet paper.
Yeah. Yeah. I also think that goes together with, you know, if you’re a leader, you need to have some sort of leader declaration, or you need to tell your staff how you want to be as a leader and why. It’s basically, it’s also connected to the vision and mission, right? This is what you can expect from me as a leader. I want to be a leader that coaches you guys. My intention is to give a lot of feedback, but I also want to have a lot of feedback. And the reason is, blah, blah, blah. Right? So you need to talk about it and why you feel that it’s important.
Guys, if you’re listening and you don’t have a mission and vision for your business, we have a great episode. Kaleda Connell. One of our mentors speaks about that. We’re going to get that link in the show notes for you. It’s a great episode and it helps you put a foundation under everything you do, and it makes all this stuff so much easier. So when you’re trying to relate feedback to your mission and vision, you’ve got one and your staff is all on that same page. Any other things you can do?
You could listen more. I think often people are too busy talking, so they don’t really listen. If you want to give feedback, you also need to listen what the other person has to say, ask follow-up questions instead of just being focused on bringing your message forward. Basically.
You know, that happens so often where, and I’ve read about this, where people often talk about conversations or like experts talk about people in conversations. And instead of actually listening to what the person is saying, they’re just thinking about what they’re going to say next. And that really prevents you from actually interacting with people and having a good dialogue where things improve.
Yeah, exactly. And the, you know, the key to asking better questions is to listen, right?
And it’s so common, you know, it’s so common when you get people who, I mean, I remember specifically there was a interview that I did with a potential staff member and he kept interrupting me whenever I was speaking. And every time he did it, I kept thinking about how would he interact with one of my clients? And ultimately we didn’t hire him because of that.
Yeah. It’s for me also, it’s frustrating if I have, let’s say that I have a business partner who is not very good at listening. So he’s always busy coming with a new arguments or whatever. And I can say if you could just lean back, listen a bit more and ask a couple of follow-up questions, this wouldn’t even be an argument. And so listening more, that that’s a skill that leaders need to develop for sure.
So it’s interesting that you’re talking about in terms of becoming better at feedback, you actually have to sit back and listen, before you give that feedback.
Yeah. Listen and observe, right? Because another mistake is that you are often a bit too vague or unspecific in your feedback because either you feel a bit uncomfortable, so you tend to not cut to the chase or, you know, just, tell it like it is. So you get a bit vague and unspecific, and then the feedback is really hard to process for the person you’re talking to.
You mentioned, sorry, go ahead. Pardon me.
Also, I think that most leaders are not really leading the way in also asking for and inviting feedback because I think that is where it starts.
I like it. And one of the things that you mentioned is practice. So we’re going to try, we’re just going to do a little bit practice role playing here for just a second. And we’re going to practice because again, a lot of people are very nervous about doing this kind of thing. The way to get better at anything is to practice when there’s no pressure on and then use it when the pressure is on. So if you’re nervous about talking to a staff member, maybe role play with, you know, your spouse or a partner or something like that. And then you’ll be more prepared for some of the things that come up. So are you ready to do a little bit of role play with me?
Do my best.
- OK. So here we go. I’m a coach at your gym and I teach the squat my way. It’s confusing your clients because all the other coaches teach it another way, the way that everyone in the gym has basically agreed that we’re going to teach the squat. I’m also not really good at accepting feedback, and I tend to get defensive. So please give me some feedback as an experienced gym owner and tell me how I should improve and change so that everyone in improves.
So I would step up to you after class. OK. Mike, can you please, can I borrow you for a few minutes?
Why? What do you need?
I would like to give you some feedback on your coaching, if that’s OK with you,
What am I doing wrong this time?
Not necessarily something that you’re doing wrong, but I do have some questions or I did observe you coaching the squat. And you have a unique way of coaching it.
Yeah, it’s my way. And it’s really good.
You had some interesting key words and stuff like that. The problem is that I experienced, I feel that when you coach a movement your way, I, as an owner and head coach, I get a bit worried and frustrated because we, you know, we do have some points of performance for movements in our gym and how to coach them. Right.
But I think mine are better. I mean, I think mine are a real improvement on what you’ve got.
- Perhaps that could be part of another conversation with the rest of the team. But I do want you to you before, you know, before we have that discussion with the team, I would like you to just read up on the points of performance that we have and start using them in your coaching. And the reason is we need to take away confusion from our members, and it’s going to strengthen the members’ trust in our team. And I think that it will also help other coaches in knowing that we are all working together. Perhaps, you know, if your cues are excellent, we should try them in our staff and then perhaps agree on them. How does that feel for you?
So you’re saying that if I, you know, I could actually bring some of my points up in a staff meeting and we can actually go over some of the reasons why I think my squat way, my squat technique is better?
Of course, I think, you know, for me, I think that culture is super important. We never know if we are coaching in the best possible way, or we always have things to improve. Right. So if you have some ideas that you want to bring up, we should, but before we do that with the whole staff team, I think we need to stick to the points of performance that we have. Right. OK.
Cause you know, I’m not trying to be a jerk here and like screw up the whole system you’ve got in place. But, you know, I think there’s a couple of really important steps that are missing from the squat, the way we teach the squat. And I think our clients would actually benefit better or more from our teaching if we just made a few adjustments. So if I had a chance to maybe talk about that, you know, that would help me a lot.
Yeah. I love it. I love it. That that is the way we grow as a team. Right. So let’s bring that up on the next staff meeting. Right.
You know, I was really, I was nervous about, I didn’t know what to do because I thought if I talked to you about your, you know, your squat progression, you’d be upset with me, so I didn’t know what to do. So I just started teaching it my way.
All right. So how do you feel now?
Well, I feel a whole lot better. How do you feel?
I feel good too, because you might have other ideas for improvement that we could use, right?
Yeah. Well, I think you could probably change your hairstyle, you know, now you’ve just opened up the can of worms. Right. But, you know, I love that because like, right at the beginning, I was kind of giving you some pushback and being a little bit defensive. Right. And, you know, I like how, you know, you were accepting, but also, you know, firm, but kind, where you were saying, like, we want to do it this way. And the thing that really, you know, I mean, I’m, role-playing here, but the thing that helped me see things was that you were allowing, you know, that I had some valid ideas and maybe what I was doing wasn’t all bad. But the reason we want to do it your way is because it relates to the mission and vision of the gym and we can definitely discuss things. But for right now, maybe we just follow the procedures and then do that in the appropriate avenue. So you kind of redirected my anger and frustration into a more appropriate spot and allowed me to also feel validated in my criticism.
You know, and when I hit you with some criticism, you didn’t get defensive on it. You know, I said, Oh, your squat progression, isn’t as good as mine or whatever. You didn’t get defensive and fight me on it, which would have just fired me up again. Because if you had said in the role-playing, if you had said, well, really our progression has been tested and it’s better. I would have fought you, you know?
Exactly. And I think that that’s an example of, you know, not trying to do things on the fly or because that should be a longer discussion. You should be able to sit down. And also one really powerful thing when you have an argument or a discussion with someone, and there are more people in the room is that you can ask other people what they think. So instead of turning it into an argument between you and the staff member, you can bounce that question or that idea around the room to get others’ perspective. And if you could see them that let’s say that all of the other staff members said that we actually don’t really think that’s a good idea because our points of performance are better or whatever, then it would be harder for you to keep pushing your ideas and your squat progression I think. Right?
Yeah. That’s exactly it. And so that takes, again, that’s the value of practice where if you are not as good at this as Per is and you run into situations like this, take them offline and practice them ahead of time. Just like you would practice, you know, a snatch before you go into an Olympic weightlifting competition, practice, then be prepared because you can definitely start to figure out where some of the things are going to pop up and you can be prepared for some of this stuff. And if you’ve practiced, you’re also less likely to be emotional, right? Because you saw in the role-play, I was sort of emotional, Per did not get emotional. And that’s because he’s done this many times, obviously it’s a role-play too, but even in a real situation, he’s done this so many times that that feedback is kind of going to wash off him.
And he’s going to be able to absorb things without getting emotional, but that comes from practice. So if you happen to be that reactive emotional person, practice, and that is just a Two-Brain principle, as Per said earlier, get the reps in. I want to direct you guys to the blog series that’s coming out this week. Per has a number of them on feedback, culture on how to use feedback to improve trust and values in your business, and also how to give and receive feedback. And there are extra questions in there. We went over some of the 10, there are extra in there. Take a look at those. Per, what is one thing? If a gym owner is listening right now and wants to get better today at giving feedback, what’s the one thing he or she should do right now?
To get better at giving feedback. OK. Then I would say, go out there and catch them being good. Look for good things in your staff and give them praise, give them feedback, tell them why you think it’s a good thing. And then ask them, how did you feel about that or something like that. So start with catch people being good, I guess, right there.
That’s very close to what you said, Two-Brain’s Bright Spots Friday, go out right now into your into your staff and find each person and give each person a piece of positive feedback. Hey, I really liked how you scrubbed down the whiteboards before class. They were sparkling. Hey, the way you help that client out in that pull-up progression was outstanding. Give some feedback and start doing that regularly. And then eventually you can start working in constructive criticism and also be prepared to take some feedback. Per. Thank you so much for sharing this. Are you looking forward to sharing more in the event that’s coming up?
Oh yes. I do think that that presentation is going to be helpful. I really hope so. I have put a lot of time and energy and love in it. So yeah, I I’m really looking forward to it. I’m a bit nervous because it’s the first time I’m presenting without the live audience. So I look forward to receiving some feedback on it
And you know, what’s interesting, you mentioned that as I’ve been privileged enough to work with you on some elements of that of that presentation and it was really cool because you were talking about feedback and then I was watching you actually receive feedback from some of the editors who were helping you out. And it was really cool to see how you absorbed that and used it to improve things without getting defensive or emotional. And I thought it was just such a cool way of you putting into practice what you were talking about. So guys out there, if you are looking for more practice on this in actual stuff, please click the link to register for this event. You can do it whether you’re a Two-Brain client or not. And you’re going to hear Per talk about feedback. Thank you so much for joining us all the way from Sweden today. I appreciate it, sir.
Thanks for having me, Mike.
All right, we’ll have you back again. Thank you.
That was Per Mattson on Two-Brain Radio. We track everything at Two-Brain. We just published Chris Cooper’s State of the Industry guide. This 84-page book is packed with data from over 6,000 gym owners. You can use it to make smart decisions, avoid mistakes, generate more revenue, and see where you stack up in the gym world. It’s 100% free and you can get it at twobrainbusiness.com/research. That link is in the show notes. Click it right now. I’m Mike Warkentin. I’ll see you next time on Two-Brain Radio. Subscribe for more.