Announcer:                            00:01                       You’re listening to TwoBrain radio. We make gyms profitable getting you on track to making every day your perfect day. Every week we’ll deliver top shelf business tactics to help improve your gym, advanced neuro fitness career and move you closer to well get ready to start building your bigger and better business. Here’s your host, bestselling fitness, author of two brain business grow your gym and Help First, Chris Cooper.

Chris Cooper:                        00:32                       Jason Brown owns boxprogramming.com a program he founded while he owned crossfit 781, because so many other box owners were contacting him to copy his programming two years later. Box programming.com is the largest provider in the world of group programming to functional fitness gyms. Jason has sold the gym to focus solely on box programming.com and he’s coming to us from his office today. Jay has been published everywhere. EliteFTS, Tnation, upcoach, twobrainbusiness.com and I originally brought him onto the show two years ago to talk about the value of a box owners time back then. A lot of gym owners, myself included, we’re spending three, four, five, six hours on a Sunday programming their weeks exercises for the gym. Yeah, maybe we were overthinking it. Yeah, maybe you could do it in two hours, but when you add up the value of your time, it quickly becomes apparent that you’re far better off to leverage that role by giving it to someone else and for about 200 bucks a month you can do just that.

Chris Cooper:                        01:35                       We still recommend box programming. Jason will be at our 2018 summit in Chicago, June 2nd and third and on this podcast today we’re going to be talking about what’s changed in affiliate programming, how to schedule your year for programming, how to program during the open, which is critical. It’s coming up this week, what to do right after the open when people are more tired of, you know, the traditional crossfit stuff. I kind of burnt out on it and then how you can add and promote a specialty groups to keep people from getting bored. As always. It’s a fantastic interview. I hope you enjoy it. All right, everybody. Welcome back to two brand radio. I’m back with Jason Brown, a box programming.com. Last time Jay was here, the fledgling little company was starting to get some traction with a lot of crossfit boxes. Since then, he is drawn to being a worldwide company is doing some amazing programming. We use it a catalyst and in hundreds of other boxes. Hey, welcome back to the and radio.

Jason Brown:                        02:29                       Hey Chris. Thanks for having me. My pleasure man. Give us some idea of the scope of box programming now compared to the last time we just, how many people are actually using this service? Wow. Um, I think when we first spoke maybe had five or six clients. MMM. And now we’re, and the 200 range.

Jason Brown:                        02:54                       Yeah. Thank you. It’s come quite a way since then. And um, yeah, it’s been, it’s been awesome. That’s great. Do you find that maybe affiliate, uh, philosophies about programming or changing, like I know that maybe fewer people are trying to do their own programming now and seeking expert guidance? Yes, it definitely has changed quite a bit. I know when I first started and even, and even, you know, from time to time now you still have people that think it’s, you know, almost sacrilegious to outsource their programming. But the overall opinion of boxes that are, are outsourcing their programming has definitely changed. And even, you know, even from us getting mentions on social media and people tagging us and stuff, I mean, that’s an happen, um, you know, until really the last year. So it’s, it’s definitely becoming more mainstream and, and becoming kind of more normal, so to speak, for people to outsource their programming.

Jason Brown:                        03:52                       Well, I’ll ask you why, but I know like in the two brain group, the reason is primarily timesaving like I was spending five or six hours a week working on this when I could’ve been working on sales or retention or just, you know, going home and sleeping. And so that’s why most to brain gyms use your service. But one of the reasons, have you heard Jay? Well, that’s obviously a huge, huge reason, um, the amount of time it takes to run your gym and to do everything else that you need to do to keep your gym, you know, healthy and successful thing that we hear. Um, and then from there, really it’s once people start seeing the results and they start trusting our process and what we do, the amount of time that I put into programming, there’s, there’s just no gym that has the time that I have.

Jason Brown:                        04:48                       I do this full time. I mean, so who’s, he has the time to put the level of effort into it. Um, backed by, you know, the practical application and, and being in the industry for 15 years. So that stuff is really hard to duplicate for someone else that is trying to run their business, trying to manage their coaches, trying to really wear all the hats in their business and then whatever time is left over. And this is kind of the common thing I hear whatever time I have leftover, it’s devoted to programming on Sunday night. And I feel like I’m not putting in the effort. I should, that I’ve heard maybe a hundred times, maybe even more than that, but people just, you know, at the end of the day they haven’t, don’t have enough time and then they still want to spend time with their family. So, you know, giving, kind of giving up the reins and handing that programming over to an expert is, I think getting easier and easier to do.

Jason Brown:                        05:41                       And then when you couple that with results, lack of injury, the rest kind of speaks for itself. And you know, we don’t have to really try to overcome any walls at that point. Yeah. I think what did it for me was the realization that I need coach people and I want them to get results, but that doesn’t mean that I have to program all of the group training workouts in my gym for that to happen. And we’ve certainly been a great testament to the success of box programming over the years. Um, but now that you’re a couple of years into just doing this full time and nothing else, how have you seen your own programming shifts? Well, again, it really comes down to a time thing. How much time do I have deployed it into programming when I own a gym and when I owned my gym and I was running Box programming, you know, I was putting in as much time as I could possibly put in.

Jason Brown:                        06:34                       And you know, it, it, it, it served me well even in doing that then, I mean, I did devote quite a bit of time to it, but now I’m able to really spend time continuing my education that I might have not had the same amount of time to do that. I, I’m able to test more workouts. I’m able to, you know, put myself in the trenches so to speak, and make sure that what I’m putting out there works. Um, and it also enables me to just sit back and objectively look at everything I’m putting out and think of how can I improve things. Um, so you know, at the end of the day if you have more time to devote to something, I always feel that if you devote as much of your effort to really just one thing rather than trying to be all spread out across four or five things, for me it yields me, it feels a lot better overall result.

Jason Brown:                        07:25                       If I’m able to just devote my, my time to one thing I’m passionate about. So not having a gym and being able to do that, the programming for me as astronomically better than when I started. I mean it’s not even the same, you know? And that, that brings up the topic of, you know, recycling programming and my programming for two years ago, the core values are the same, but man, does it look different. And, and you know, any of my clients would attest to that. So if I’m a brand new client, right, and I’ve got a sample of like February, 2016 year and I’ve got a sample of 2018 what would be the most immediate and obvious differences in the program? The organization. I mean it, there’s more detail. There’s more organization, there’s more. Um, there’s just more detail to making your class run more efficiently.

Jason Brown:                        08:19                       Now, like I said, a lot of the same core values are the same. I still am a conjugate guy and I, I, I believe the conjugate method is the best method in the world. And you know, if we put that into play with, with energy systems work and our crossfit benchmarks plays out incredibly well. So, um, to someone that doesn’t have a trained eye, they might not see the difference right off the bat. But my clients had been with me, you know, there’s a whole handful of them that would boom the over two years now they, you know, they know that it’s different and even say things like every month is better than the one before. And that’s where it really should be. Programming is like anything you need balls, you know, what I was doing two years ago is not what I’m doing today.

Jason Brown:                        09:00                       And, um, there’s a lot of things that are great today that I didn’t have back then as far as, you know, having the, the amount of video library and we have over 200 videos in our video library now. Um, the amount of resources I have in the backend of my site and even connecting the programming to the videos and having a, a state of the art platform to deliver programming. I mean it’s just a world of a difference, easier for affiliate owners to make sure that they were executing the programming as if I was coaching it warm. It’s getting done on that level. And that’s really what our, our aim is. Okay. So you know, obviously you’ve made these changes for reasons due to feedback from affiliates. So for example, in the early days, uh, I don’t think you had like a class plan, right? But now you do.

Chris Cooper:                        09:50                       Why did you have to add that stuff?

Jason Brown:                        09:53                       We had a class plan but it wasn’t as detailed. And um, I think the first client I had, I didn’t have a, I had basically your warm up, your strength and conditioning, maybe some accessory work and that was it. And now it’s really wild to minute by minute having a whiteboard and actual brief at the whiteboard. What are you telling your clients and putting it into language that they can understand. And then what are the coaches need to know that’s above and beyond what you’re telling your clients. Having that stuff and having minute by minute and building in, in testing kind of more scenarios as far as making sure we have enough time to do everything we need to do and as well as give people the biggest bang for the buck. That’s a tricky balance and that’s really something that has improved tenfold from when I first started and you know, compare it to now.

Chris Cooper:                        10:42                       So what was the, what was the feedback like why did you have to start adding the minute by minute what we see in crossfit boxes that made you say, these guys need to be giving their clients?

Jason Brown:                        10:55                       Well, I, what I kind of saw was, um, coaches not having the time that they needed to do their best part coaching and you know, in, in their, in their defense I put a lot into a class plan and you know, it, there’s never anyone that said, hey, there’s not enough there, there is more than enough and if you’re not on point with the actual like running a clock and having, you know, a legitimate mindset of okay, I can’t spend an extra seven minutes rolling out today, I need that seven minutes for the next part of our class. So having that stuff has been huge because it keeps people on point and you know, the, the owner’s perspective, they have a better product because not only is it uniform from coach to coach, you know, you’re not going to have one class that’s going to be a stark difference from the other because you have that detailed plan and rather or not, you know, your coach is the greatest coach there is.

Jason Brown:                        11:59                       They still have minute by minute plan where it’s, you know, it’s made in a way that they can execute it. In a very high level, um, regardless of their experience. So that’s important. And then the quality control, you know, being able to, to monitor, you know, making sure that the coaches are giving their best performance in each class and that’s something that we need to have done to have a successful gym. So that’s made it easier for gym owners to really not have to worry about what’s getting done. And you know, is this class is my 5:30 AM class as good as my 7:00 PM class.

Chris Cooper:                        12:35                       I see that really, and it hadn’t occurred to me until now, but if you’ve got different coaches working in the morning and the night and it takes those coaches like one class to really get warmed up and get to perfect man, you could be putting imperfect classes together all day long with completed or messages and experiences unless you’re told minute by minute, here’s exactly what you do. Right, exactly. I know it was a box owner in the past. Like let’s say that you had four different coaches coaching over the course of a day. One or two of them would go crazy trying to figure out like, okay, how long is this going to take? What’s the research behind this? What’s the best use for the box squat? And then you’d have one or two who wouldn’t do any research at all and you can really see the difference between the classes. So that’s great.

Chris Cooper:                        13:23                       but you also put as much care into kind of like the longterm plan here. And I wanted to get you on the show because with the open coming up, this is always the trickiest time of the year to program, right?

Jason Brown:                        13:38                       Yes, it is. And, and uh, it’s not tricky because of the context. It’s tricky because of the stress levels that your clients and curve from the open and not just from the workouts, from, there’s a lot of other physiological things that happen with the crossfit open and these are things we’ve come to realize over the last five or six years. So it’s definitely a tricky time. And it really leads, leads to what is your plan after the open because how do people feel after the open? How did it feel in your jam? They’re probably like, all right, I’ve had enough of breathing for a little bit.

Jason Brown:                        14:17                       I want to do something else. Um, and I will say, Chris, that people feel that way after the open. Again, it’s not because of the workouts. There are no different, right? We do couplets and triplets all year long, but the level of anxiety and stress that comes with those workouts, because number one, you’re put on stage. You do Friday night lights, everyone sees me. There’s no hiding. Number two, your scores posted on the Internet so your peers can see what you got. There’s again, no hide it. And number three, it’s just so you know, people that may have said, all right, I had a bad day, so I’m not going to post my purple. I’m not going to post my score on our database. I’m going to kind of mail it in today. They can’t do that because it’s getting judged. They have to post their score and it’s right here in front of you.

Jason Brown:                        15:10                       There’s no hiding what your level of fitness is. So that anxiety, that stress adds to high intensity, which is already stressful in and of itself. So after five weeks of that, people invariably feel burnt out. And really it’s a great opportunity for owners to offer a new program, a barbell club and Olympic lifting program. Something that is different because more times than not, people will be like, Hey, I’m going to go do soul cycle or, or, uh, orange theory. I want to get out of the box for the next 12 weeks. You want to keep them at your box because your box needs healthy revenue to sustain itself. So keep them at your box. Do a bodybuilding. I mean, how many people want to do look better? Everyone wants to look better and it’s a great time to say, Hey, we’re going to focus on getting stronger and looking better for the next eight to 12 weeks.

Jason Brown:                        16:03                       Um, and it just keeps them there and it keeps them engaged. And then after that eight to 12 weeks, they’re ready to go back to crossfit. Okay.

Chris Cooper:                        16:11                       I can definitely justify this in sue Saint Marie, we’re starting to be open. I can see the snow banks like above my windows outside. By the time the open has done it, the sun is shining. People don’t want to be cycling the barbell anymore. So we’re going to like couch to five k and stuff. I think the bodybuilding ideas are great. One j you know, what should they do if they don’t really know what to put in place to how programs like that? I do. Yes. I mean I have several programs that would fit the bill for this. It really depends on what direction you want to go. There’s really been a big push for like summer shreds style programs get lean, get shredded.

Jason Brown:                        16:54                       Uh, you know, there’s a whole slew of names that people call it, but the overall emphasis is getting, you know, improving body composition with single joint movements and things that aren’t done as much added, typical, you know, typical box programming. I will say my programming has a ton of hypertrophy work. That is a staple, nonnegotiable theme of our programming. We include lots of hypertrophy work. Um, you know, for general, I mean it’s just as beneficial as his compound movements are. So, you know, you could really go any direction with it. And you know, we, we have a barbell club, we have an Oli program, we have, uh, you know, get lean program. So there’s really a lot of options there that, that they could use at their disposal. And then, you know, like I said, more times than not after eight weeks time is usually people are like, all right, I miss doing couplets and triplets and competing with my friends.

Jason Brown:                        17:46                       Okay. Well I want to come back to that because you know, talking about group program design and individual program design, some people who are burnt out after the open should maybe change tactics just to relieve stress and mentality. But during the open, obviously we know like Thursday night everybody’s watching Dave Castro’s events announcements, you know, what do you program on Friday? Maybe if you’re doing the open event on Friday. Okay. But then what do you program on Saturday? How do you program the rest of the week while the open’s going on? Well, this is one of the hardest things with group programming because you don’t have the ability of knowing everyone’s schedules. And this is why I follow a set template. I don’t rotate things. One week or another, we follow a very consistent schedule and that ensures that we have built in recovery. We’re not doing high threshold work all the time and we’re not putting people in a position where they could potentially overtrain which overtraining and crossfit is very much prevalent right now.

Jason Brown:                        18:46                       It’s happening, people are burnt out. I’ve seen it quite a bit. Um, and if you know, you build your program on high intensity, we’re only, your clients are already stressed out. They already have bad jobs, they already have bad diets, they already don’t sleep well. And then you add high intensity work every single day of the week. Yes. What happens? Stress on top of stress equals disaster. So with the open you have that added added leveling society. So the overall volume, the overall intensity needs to be lower and it also needs to be front loaded towards the beginning of the week. So we’re going to have super high threshold work. And for me, I don’t that five weeks or in the open, there’s going to be significantly less volume in terms of intensity and it’s going to be front loaded. So I have a builtin 48 hour buffer from Friday to Saturday. From Monday to Friday, I have 96 hours, which is, you know, 72 to 96 hours is plenty of time.

Jason Brown:                        19:44                       But the tricky thing is, is that you don’t know when your clients are showing up. You, you know, you, you have, you know, for the most part you probably can tell who’s gonna be who comes when and who’s on what schedule. But that’s the hardest thing is that if your client only trains specific days, you know, if you don’t have a set template, you run into issues. If you do have a set template, then you can mitigate those issues. So really again, the overall messages, okay, five weeks of super high anxiety work. I don’t even say hi. First of all, let’s say anxiety because they’re stressed out about the overall event. Um, that means that we need to lower things. So this is really, you know, you really get into this in depth is from a physiological standpoint, but just to simplify it, if you’re going to have this added element of anxiety, then we need to take away, it’s like addition by subtraction, we’ll take away something else.

Jason Brown:                        20:40                       So we’re not compounding that inherent stress. It’s already there with the crossfit open. That’s so do you find your programming like movements that people generally wouldn’t see in the open during that time too? Or how do you combat that anxiety? Is it just volume? Is it just intensity or you also putting, so we still do the same stuff. I mean there’s a lot of the same local movements. There’s global movements. Um, but you know, for me, for my program, for, for using, being a conjugate system guy, it’s concurrent fitness. So, and it’s also various, so we do a lot of things that are outside the box. A lot of different loaded carries, a lot of different, um, you know, a lot of kind of weird movements in a workout that people see on paper and they’re like, oh, that looks funny. But then they do it and they’re like, wow, that was actually really hard, but in a kind of good way where I felt like I wasn’t destroying myself, but I felt like I was getting some added element that I don’t usually get.

Jason Brown:                        21:38                       Um, so you know, things like loaded carries and more aerobic type pieces, you’ll see more of that. You know, I would say a little bit more of that during the open, but in our programming as a whole, 365 days a year, you’re going to see a consistent amount of that stuff, um, to ensure that we’re facilitating recovery and building people’s faces. Really. Okay. That’s really interesting. So during the open affiliate owners who are doing their own programming should be filming, overseeing on world that causes less anxiety, maybe lowering the intensity a little bit because the good cortisol triggered by the stress of the open will impact immediately after the open. You said we should be looking at some kind of novel programming stream. I love the bodybuilding idea. Um, we, we do couch to five k just so that’s great. But when we’re making these descriptions for clients, and you said this already twice, like Brian exercise prescription as top, some people will feel energized by the open and say, Oh man, I almost had toasts tomorrow.

Chris Cooper:                        22:44                       I want to get that now. Some people like me will say, I just want to go to the hell outside. Um, so when you’re making these prescriptions, like how do you determine whether something is a group prescriptions for everybody new crossfit class or it’s an individual prescription that you may like during a goal setting session. So in the group setting it’s really a utilitarian type view. It’s a greater good for the greatest number and based off of my own data, my own expertise in doing this for a long time as a whole, your clients are going to be, now they might feel energized because they want to get close to of our pride. Their autonomic system is probably going to be stressed out. They’re probably going to have a less, a less optimal state of trainability at that point in time. And now that’s not my opinion.

Jason Brown:                        23:32                       That’s actual, we’re actually measuring, we can measure changes in their autonomic nervous system, then we know that they’re stressed out. They’re not out of place that they would normally be if everything else was was optimal. Now again, that added level of anxiety is not optimal, especially on a continuous basis. So again, greater good is most likely they’re going to be stressed out and they’re probably going to be in a position where if they continue going that route, then they will overtrain. Um, so I, you know, and it’s, it’s really top because I’m basing this off of kind of a general now if I had everyone’s HRV measurements, I could say, yeah, you feel fine but you’re not fine and we need more low intensity. And then that’s basically, that’s like what you guys do with, with, um, measuring metrics. We’re measuring metrics that there’s no guesswork.

Jason Brown:                        24:23                       Right? And I love that, but we can’t do that in a group setting. And actually that’s something we’re, we’re working on for the future. But, um, you know, getting off on a tangent here but, but basically what I’m saying is if you give people the opportunity to, to engage in some type of other training after they’re already stressed out, I think organically their bodies will kind of say, Hey, I’m ready to do x, y I’m pretty to do couch to five K, I’m ready to try this out. And you know, just to get a change of pace because that’s why people look cross it. Cause it’s, there’s so many different aspects to it, you know, that they can work on. Um, so again, it’s, it’s just really a great time to do that to ensure that they’re not over training and they’re staying at your facility.

Chris Cooper:                        25:06                       Okay. So what you’re saying is if we just offer this special program instead, the people who are or stress or burned out, I think most of them would gravitate towards something different. There are some hard chargers who actually need to be told, take a weeks, slow down. How do you handle that conversation? I’m glad you brought that up because what I do with my programming is I, we’ve developed pacing recommendations. Okay. And there they started at 50% and they go to 100% and they correlate with energy systems and it makes it very easy to give proper guidance based off of the stimulus, the intentive stimulus of a workout that we’re, we’re delivering to our clients. So I use that. I also use scoreless days, days that have no measure days that you know, the score might be what is, you know, what is your goal for the open this year? Or what did you eat when I love is what did you eat for breakfast?

Jason Brown:                        26:06                       Numbers Don’t lie. And you know, it’s like, that’s your score today because I don’t want you to think about what did your peer get? What is your, you know, how this compares to your best performance. I want you to think about quality of movement, breathing, pacing, having fun. Like don’t worry about your freaking brand time, worry about better movement patterns. Wary about how well you paste and look at more of the positive metrics, not just your time or hey my time is only 10 seconds less than this athlete, but I know I’m better than that athlete. And then it just brings up all these other things. So the, the short answer is scoreless days that have low pacing recommendations. I only, I only want you guys to go 70% today. Your goal is to pace, breathe, you know, start slow and augment your pacing. But at no point should you feel like your red line or you have to rest for a couple minutes to kind of regain yourself sort of one point you like does somebody benefit or would they benefit more from, you know, going into like a, an individual design program instead of following general group programming.

Jason Brown:                        27:16                       It all depends on what their goals are. You’re training for something specific, then you, you’re going to want specific things for that specific event. Now, um, obviously like we talked about concurrent training and, and I believe that conjugate method is the best way to do that, to develop all aspects of fitness. But at the same token, if you’re training for a marathon, I’ve had several people train with me for marathons and I have never run a marathon, which to me, I don’t like coaching things. I’ve never gone, but they actually have me coaching them to get stronger. So you know, if you’re doing a marathon or you’re doing, um, you know, a triathlon or some type of specific events and Olympic lifting meet, then you’re going to need specific guidance, um, for that, for those types of things. If of course you want to put your best effort out there, if you’re cool with staying at group classes and still doing those events, that’s the best thing about college.

Jason Brown:                        28:09                       You to have to do. The best thing about crossfit is that we’re going to be well rounded, enabled, the still doing Olympic lifting meet, even if we’ve only went to general population classes at your local box if they’re using it for tracking. Okay. So obviously a specialist requires special care. I get that sort of the last five people who join catalyst have gone straight into our ID program and they’re going to stay there for the foreseeable future. It’s not like they’re on ramp plan toward group. They wanted individual design in our box. That means personal training once a week and some homework that they’re going to do either in our private space or at home.

Chris Cooper:                        28:51                       Where do you see in this kind of resurgence of personal training on different individual design, custom programming? Where do you see the opportunity for other boxes who are currently selling group classes to really benefit from having like a one on one service?

Jason Brown:                        29:12                       Well, I think that for the gyms revenue and the coaches paycheck, doing one on one training offers, you know, the unique ability to improve that. It also offers clients the ability to decide when they want to train. Hey, I can’t make any of your class times but I can train at 10:00 AM okay, well we can do one on one training. And that’s really the only option. You know, I, I, when I trained people want on one, it was specific. It was actually times that didn’t even coincide with our, with our classes. Um, and that gives them the unique ability to, to not only have the one on one attention of a coach because most of the people I actually train one on one work. We’re, we’re not really training for anything specific. They were training because they wanted to be better versions of themselves really.

Jason Brown:                        30:01                       And they wanted the one on one attention from a coach. They wanted to train at their unique time and um, you know, they, you know, they wanted, they didn’t mind paying a premium for that. I mean, if you have the option, then you have the ability to pay Charles Pollock when to train. You want to one or you had the other alternative was I’ll go to the local box. I mean, I don’t know. I think I’d probably choose Charles Schwab if I can take paper that, you know, you’re going to get a different level of care when you’re one on one. Um, and that’s just you, you just can’t duplicate that. Now I think you could do very well in a group setting and provide great instruction. And do very well with it, but it’s just different. You’re not, it’s apples to oranges. Really.

Chris Cooper:                        30:50                       From a personal perspective, the gentleman just signed up this morning, the reason that he was choosing it was time flexibility, you know, that was more important to them than money detective. She can’t always make the 7:00 AM class. For me personally, I’m doing one of our coaches. I love groups, but the problem is I almost love them too much and you know with my current cortisol levels, after some blood tests to coach said, hey, you need to go skiing three days a week and come to crew twice. Right, right. The key though is I think making those opportunities available to clients. What are some of the best practices you’ve seen where a coach takes a client and says, hey, we need to spend some time one on one. You know, your needs are temporarily different than that. You have some examples of that, Jay.

Jason Brown:                        31:47                       So the thing that we had the most success with and, and, and we’ve got this straight from from you, Chris, when we started with you, is we got adopted a one on one on ramp and when we adopted one-on-one onramp it made it so much easier to convert those people to one on one clients because they’re already in a one on one setting.

Jason Brown:                        32:06                       They were getting that one on one attention. They’re coming at their own time that works best for their schedule. So it, the conversion from one on one to one on one as much easier than I do group on ramp and then I’m going to convert them to a one on one. It just doesn’t happen. I mean the transition just doesn’t make sense. So one on one onramp and you know, we got plenty of people go from one one on raped, their dead set. I’m going to group classes but not only is it good for conversion to one on one clients, but it also better them for classes cause they get one on one attention. We can, we can spend as much time as we need to, you know, within reason. Obviously on the deadlift we don’t have to rush because we’re in a group, right? We have one client that can’t get a dead lifts in there. Onramp you know, we can come back to it. Whereas if I’m with 10 people and I’m trying to get them through group on ramp, we’re really limited. I mean, you’re kind of under the gun there because you can’t really stop a whole group for the sake of one person. So one on one onramp is, I feel, I mean that was the game changer for us. I mean, I wish we did that as soon as we opened our doors.

Jason Brown:                        33:18                       And then let’s say that a client is two years in, they’re starting to struggle a little bit. They’re getting stressed, you know, visiting the box isn’t making them happier, it’s making them more stressed. How as a coach, do you take them aside and say, let’s just work one on one for two months. So I think the biggest thing that we did with this is you can offer as much as you can offer in a group setting. Um, but then it’s like, hey, you know, you’re, you’re really close to getting that muscle up. I want to help you get that muscle up. Let’s schedule a one on one session, a 30 minutes session, let’s go through this. Let’s, let’s give you the time that you need and immediate ability to spend the time with you that you need to get you that muscle up. And I think once you kind of shift the emphasis of, Hey, do a one on one session with me, this is what a cost too.

Jason Brown:                        34:12                       I want to help you get that muscle up. You know, you’re trying to, we’re trying to help clients, we’re not trying to price gouge and which we want to help them. We want to see them succeed. And I think if you approach it that way, the people are a lot more receptive, receptive to taking that plunge and spending the money with that 30 minute session. And then from there, once you get that one session under their belt got, you know, I’ve had this happen where I’ve had people go to one on one and um, it’s also a good opportunity to present to them individual programming. Hey, I want to supplement current training and I want to, I want to get bigger biceps. Well we can, we can definitely do that and this is how we do it. And you can give them, you know, individual and individual plan and individual guidance.

Jason Brown:                        34:53                       So there’s lots of opportunities to do that stuff. But I think a lot of coaches might not be comfortable doing it and they just got to kind of shifted away from, I’m trying to take money from people and make it more about you’re trying to help them. Yeah, we could go for three hours about, um, okay, so let’s, let’s talk about individual design and I know that more and more now you have people coming to you and saying, I want a program just for myself. You know, we have a couple of mutual friends, like not, um, we’re getting like individual programming, you know. Have you started doing that more or are you seeing them more? I actually started doing it less because for you to devote the amount of time to each person that I need, it’s, it wasn’t really a scalable thing for me.

Jason Brown:                        35:41                       Um, I had 18 individual clients at one point and that was like really kind of the match. Um, so I’ve really kind of, yeah, I’ve made a lot more programs that are, are, uh, a little bit more cost effective for people and they still giving them a focus on a specific element that they want to focus on. Um, and you know, it’s, it’s much easier to do that from both ends as far as it’s easier on the wallet and it’s also, it doesn’t require a ton of my time. You know, I can write the program and give you a great product for a fraction of the price, but you know, individual programming, you know, I, I do it for a few people and it’s more of a case by case basis at this point of, you know, I need to be able to develop the amount of time to you, um, that I need.

Jason Brown:                        36:27                       And you know, the great thing with the individual programming as though you can monitor things like HRV. I mean, one of the girls I work with is we monitor everything. I mean, we monitor HRV. If she’s having an off day, she texts me in the morning and, uh, we, we basically adjust your training to coincide with her, her measurements. There’s trainability for a given day. I mean, with crossfit competitors, there’s so much stress that they’re putting on their bodies and it’s a fine line between how much is enough stress and when we want to provide stress, but we don’t want to go overboard with stress. So, um, so for me, I, and I don’t know how other people are doing it, but I can’t, I can’t program individually for a hundred people. That’s just, it’s impossible. Um, I wouldn’t even feel right about trying to do that. It just, I would not be able to put the amount of time it’s each person now for five people I can do it but not for definitely not for a hundred people.

Chris Cooper:                        37:23                       Okay. So what we’re kind of back to your is like, it’s really the responsibility of the coach or the coach is kind of the nexus between the programming the client and it’s the coaches. John just say, now you need to take eight weeks off and focused on, you know, a hypertrophy program and here it is. Or do you need just focus on choosing something completely different, a tough mudder, here’s a program for that or we kind of reaching that point of your journey. For me, Chris, I, the thing I’m most passionate about is group programming or internationally box for a strength. Can, you know, we’re getting into more strength conditioning facilities and, um, I really think that people can do everything they need to do if the programming is optimal in that setting. Um, so that’s for me, that’s why I’ve gotten away from individual programming and made, you know, affiliate programming, group programming my thing that I want to devote the most amount of time too because I really do believe that you can get better at all aspects of fitness simultaneously.

Jason Brown:                        38:25                       And I, and, and I’ve done it for years when my clients with myself, with the gyms that I work with now, um, you know, where they are improving their power, they’re improving their aerobic capacity, they’re improving their body composition, their improving their dead lifts. I mean, all of these things are done. It’s been done that Louie Simmons has been doing it for years. I mean, I, he invented, he basically invented this system. Um, you know, combining the Russian and the book area and system and using special exercises to bring up, you know, we points. So it’s, it’s being done. And if you’re know you’re looking at, you know, people across what they want to do, everything they want to get, they want to prove their five k they want to prove their dead lift and they also want to look good with their shirt off. So you can do that all at once. And that’s basically what I’m, you know, the whole goal of what I do is, is giving people 365 days a year fitness.

Chris Cooper:                        39:19                       Okay. So final question is about crossfit competitors. You know, I just spent some time with a couple of them like when I was down at Hq last week. Um, these guys require a ton of attention from their coaches. Many crossfit gym owners would love to have a games athlete at their box. I’m not sure that they’re really taking into account the type of time do they have to dedicate to this athlete and what that athlete should actually be paying to match the time required. What have you seen from boxes training games athletes in the last two years? Jay?

Jason Brown:                        39:54                       Uh, yeah. You know, it’s, you hit the nail on the head. It’s the amount of time that goes into that is, is, um, is astronomical. Um, programming for girl right now and coaching a girl that’s a very close to make regionals and we’ve been working together for over a year now. And just her alone, like I said, we monitor every aspect of retraining. Um, so putting a price tag on that, it’s top because what is your time worth? What do you, what do you work by the hour? I mean, I could never charge what I, if I actually did the actual math, I couldn’t charge that. I just don’t think it would be, you know, reasonable. But it is a lot of time and I think it’s more of a commitment on if you’re doing it, you’re not doing it to make money, you’re doing it because you know, you’re taking a vested interest in someone.

Jason Brown:                        40:44                       And that’s why I started doing it, uh, for the girl at this one girl that I work with. Um, I actually, you know, I, I sponsored her. I liked, um, you know, her attitude, I saw her putting in the effort. I saw that she had some great potential and I wanted to help her succeed. So, you know, I did, for me it was, I’m getting something from it too. It’s, it’s very fulfilling and rewarding to me. So I can’t put really a price tag on, you know, me helping this girl for her, for her to succeed, you know, there’s more of it than just her paying me. So if you’re in a position to do that, that’s great. But if I owned a gym still and I was trying to get someone to the games, it’s, it’s tough because there’s so much time that already is in your life with running and gym. And not to mention, you know, having a family. I didn’t have a family one. Yeah. I own the gym.

Chris Cooper:                        42:36                       The J I’m really glad that you’re very close to your perfect day now. Congratulations. The new baby turned a month old yesterday, right? Yes. Beautiful, gorgeous.

Chris Cooper:                        42:47                       A little family. Uh, I’m really proud of all your success, man. Thank you for doing what you’re doing for box owners out there. I know that using box programming gets me a lot closer to perfect day because it reads up my Sundays, right?

Jason Brown:                        43:01                       Yeah. I mean, Chris, I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you why in just a kind of, you know, one final note, you know, back when I started working with you, you know, there was a lot of things that you, I wouldn’t say you made me do, but you had a very tactful way of getting me to do these things that I didn’t want to do. I will say putting myself out there with writing content, with making videos and you know, putting myself out there for the world to basically criticized was really, really hard thing. And I, and if I didn’t do it, I wouldn’t be sitting here talking to you.

Jason Brown:                        43:33                       So thank you for that. I, I mean that’s probably the greatest thing anyone’s ever done for me is, is encouraged me to put myself out there and really take that leap. Um, the, you know, putting yourself out there is not hard. And I think a lot of coaches I work with, they struggle that they want to be recognized as a subject matter expert in their area. But they overthink, oh, is this good enough? Is there, it was the video good enough? Is the quality good. Did I, you know, have a Typo in mine? My article like, man, just, you’ve got to just do it. Put yourself out there because none of us are perfect and you know, showing vulnerability. I think the only just connects you to people even more. I really appreciate you doing one for that. For me that’s just was, you know, one of the greatest things that someone’s ever done for me.

Chris Cooper:                        44:22                       People are going to hear this and they’re going to want to say, yeah, I’m busy. I’m running the open. I need to talk to a box program. Where can they reach you?

Jason Brown:                        44:31                       You go to boxprogramming.com they can book a call on my site and uh, you know, we can, we can do a zoom call chat, see if what I’m doing lines up with what you’re looking for and then we can proceed from there. And then, you know, hopefully, uh, you know, get something great going.

Jason Brown:                        44:49                       Great man. Thanks for helping all the box owners today. We’ll talk again soon. Awesome. Thanks for us.