How to Sell Supplements in Your Gym the Smart Way

How to Sell Supplements in Your Gym the Smart Way

Chris Cooper: (00:01)

Selling supplements in your gym has changed a lot in the last few years. And today I’m joined by Mike Shelly of Thorne. And we’re gonna tell you how to sell supplements in your gym with low risk, how to choose quality supplements, how to make sure that you’re getting a margin on it, when it’s best to recommend supplements and all that other great stuff. So, Mike, welcome to the show.

Mike Shelly: (00:23)

Hey Chris, thanks so much for having me. I appreciate being on with you.

Chris Cooper: (00:25)
Yeah. So there are people in the audience who have never heard of Thorne. And to be honest, I hadn’t a couple years ago, and then you were introduced as part of the Crossfit APN and I started digging in, and the story just got more and more interesting as I went. So can you give us like the three minute version of, who is Thorne? Where did you come from and you know, why are you at the Two-Brain Summit?

Mike Shelly: (00:48)

Yeah. And I would say I had a similar experience with Thorne. I came from a training background myself and the CEO of Thorne ended up being referred to this facility and we were training high, like, elite hockey players at the time. And basically he’s like, I work for this company Thorne, it’s been around since- or he runs this company Thorne, it’s been around since the mid eighties. And I’m like, I’ve never heard of this. And so anyway, going down that rabbit hole, the company was founded in 1984, which is really hard to believe it’s almost 40 years old now, but predominantly it was servicing the functional medicine community, and that’s by and large why all of us in the sort of fitness and performance space have just never heard of it, quite frankly. Up until about eight years ago, which is when I was fortunate enough to join the company, you couldn’t even buy it unless you went through a doctor. Like, you couldn’t even buy it on

Mike Shelly: (01:47)

And so a lot of that has shifted, where now we, you know, obviously you can find it on the website, and you can find it in specific gyms. And we’re trying to grow that side of the house now. About eight years ago was when we started expanding the NSF certified for sport line, which is basically the products that we have that are tested against banned substances. And so from that point on we’ve branched out into professional collegiate sports, into fitness, now we’re a partner of CrossFit, of course. And then, you know, excited to be at the Two-Brain Summit with you guys, was just sort of keep peeling back the layers of the onion, if you will, and expanding and growing. Another one of our partners now is the UFC. And so all of that is just originated in this company that nobody’s ever heard of, to start way back in the mid eighties to now, we’re hoping to come on like a storm, so to speak and really get out for all the right reasons.

Chris Cooper: (02:47)

That’s cool. And so I did go back into my archives and I was curious about this. I looked at some supplements that I’d been sold when I visited a local naturopath, maybe about a decade ago, and they were Thorne supplements. And so, you know, we were being introduced at the time to like, I guess she would’ve called a medical grade. But now, you know, how is that being perceived in the gym space, that there’s this higher level of supplements available out there? What’s the response been?

Mike Shelly: (03:19)

Extremely good in that I think the consumer is now becoming a lot smarter and more aware, just of the general landscape of nutritional supplementation and they are craving the high quality nutritional supplement. I think if you just did a little bit of research, you could easily see, and we hear stories all the time about, you know, maybe somebody that has taken something that caused an adverse reaction, or in some cases had an extreme adverse reaction and passed away if there was something that was really bad that was in that product. And so the industry is regulated. That’s kind of a misnomer where people think, oh, it’s like the wild west, you know, and the FDA doesn’t care. That’s actually not true. They do regulate it. It’s just a little bit different than food or the pharmaceutical industry, but Thorne has always just kind of approached it from the perspective of, well, let’s just see what we can do to provide the highest quality product that we can, that doesn’t have any binders or, you know, fillers or flowing agents.

Mike Shelly: (04:29)

You know, anything that is not essential for production or offers a therapeutic benefit of some kind. And so I think when you have the history that we do, 30 plus years of servicing the functional medicine community, and then now you start to transition that quality over into a sports performance space where they know that the products are really, really high quality, but they actually work with the intended purposes. We’re just finding that it’s a huge need that more and more people are really passionate about.

Chris Cooper: (05:05)

Okay, so Thorne and Two-Brain have produced a guide that you can download to help you sell supplements in your gym. And the goal is not just to push supplements, but actually to define what a client needs and then help them get only what they need. Right? Gym owners are facing three challenges, Mike, and we’re gonna go through these in order. And the first is quality. We don’t wanna push junk that they would get down the street at the GNC or whatever. The second is margin. Like, the gym owner has to be able to make money at this, or they’ve got too much other stuff to do on their plate. And the third is like, inventorying this stuff, like, do you wanna actually tie up your cash in inventorying them? And so, you know, starting a couple years ago, when we started talking about how to actually sell supplements, we started getting some of these plans together. I think maybe we should start with quality. Because I know Thorne does work with the Olympics in some level, right?

Mike Shelly: (06:03)

Yeah. So in terms of the Olympic partnerships, we have a bunch of US national teams that we support. That process originated several years ago where an individual named Wes Barnett, who still works at Thorne now, is basically our head of performance. He’s a two-time Olympian himself in the sport of weightlifting. And he was at the USOC and he’s had a bunch of different roles there. He’s one of the nicest human beings you’ve ever met. One of the more higher integrity individuals I’ve ever met personally. And so it started off, if you will, with a pursuit of trying to find a high quality product that you could recommend safely to Olympic athletes, or any drug tested athlete for that matter. A lot of times, or originally, the stance was just don’t recommend anything.

Mike Shelly: (07:06)

And that was probably the safest way to do it, but it was unrealistic, I think in a lot of respects because athletes are still looking for supplementation or solutions that they can utilize to help them through training, working out competitions, et cetera. And sort of, Wes, in a lot of ways, spearheaded the approach. And just trying to find the solution that where the USOC could basically say, you know, “tread carefully, but this is a brand that we trust.” It was about a three year vetting process, as I understand it. And you know that, I mean, we had to obviously audit everything, show how we go through the manufacturing processes, where we source raw materials from, the testing processes through production, getting the banned substance testing through NSF to ensure that it is safe.

Mike Shelly: (08:05)

And so, you know, when you do that and you open up the doors, so to speak. After that there was a private endorsement, if you will, where the USOC felt comfortable enough to make the recommendations and say, okay, this was a brand that we feel is okay to recommend. And that is a very huge step as you can probably imagine. And that’s really what led to other partnerships that we have too, like the UFC, PI, as an example. And honestly, that’s what led us down the path with CrossFit as well. So from a quality perspective, one of the things that I was the most impressed about, even as I was learning about the brand before I had officially joined the company was just that the production, or the processes that are in place to even make the product that is going to get shipped out to somebody, there’s a massive no list that we have. Which, all that means is basically we will not use anything that is artificial to manufacture the products.

Mike Shelly: (09:13)

We don’t use any binders or fillers or flowing agents, things like that. We don’t use magnesium stearate in our products as well. And that’s a pretty important part that just basically helps to make production a little bit easier. But part of the reason why we don’t use it is because it makes absorption unpredictable. And so, you know, everything at Thorne is geared towards the experience of the client or the patient, if you will, as it pertains to the therapeutic benefit. So if it really doesn’t have a purpose or serve a purpose, it doesn’t go in the product. We have an entire medical affairs team at Thorne that is naturopathic doctors, PhDs, MDs, you know, so in terms of quality, you really can’t get any better in my opinion, because I just know all of the things that we do internally as a brand.

Mike Shelly: (10:07)

And that’s all for the sole purpose of again, serving the client or the patient that is going to place their trust in us to say, all right, I need to do something about my health, or I’m gonna intentionally choose a supplement. I’m therefore going to choose this. And I need that to do this for me. Right. Like the goal isn’t like, Hey, you’re all deficient in powder, right? Like, how much powder can we sell you and push on you? That’s not it at all. I think what we’re really looking at are performance metrics across the board. So performance can be measured by anything, you know. Is that performance in the gym? Is that performance in health, is that performance in managing and supporting inflammation in your system so that you feel better? Without going too far, that’s what honestly is leading us down the path for diagnostics and things like that, because the end goal is always, how can we do the very best for the people that trust us the most with their hard earned money? And so from a quality side, I think all of the partnerships are just a byproduct of us, hopefully doing the very best that we can when it comes to just manufacturing something that people trust to purchase.

Chris Cooper: (11:22)

All right. And that’s paid off, I mean, USOC is one thing, but you also show up on the very short list of recommended products by Precision Nutrition, for example, Wild Health. So that that’s awesome, man. When affiliates are thinking, should I sell supplements? I think the real question they should be asking is, are my clients buying supplements? Because in my experience they are, and they can either buy them from you, or they can go talk to the 18 year old who’s paid commission down at the GNC and take her recommendation. So what are the top five maybe supplements that you see gym owners selling?

Mike Shelly: (11:59)

Yeah. So, it’s a great question. And I think the best way to start is usually simple solutions always work best. And you know, most people will consume something like a whey protein for post-workout nutrition. They’ll want something intra, so you can use like an electrolyte, like a catalyte or amino acids, like our amino complex fish oil is pretty important today. So you can do that and then you can do another product like creatine to help around training. I would probably start with those five. And then from there it’s more about seeing how the foundational other aspects that you wanna incorporate. You can do a basic multi, you can do a daily greens that we’ve recently come out with, and that’s a pretty good place to start without getting too crazy. The beauty of Thorne is that we do have a lot of other options past that if you wanted to really get sophisticated, but if you wanted to just stick to the basics, we do have a lot of these options too.

Mike Shelly: (13:07)

Foundations can start and extend a little bit more too, like vitamin D or a magnesium, but I think outside of that, just really heavy hitters where they feel like they get big bang for their buck, so to speak, can go a long way. And that’s also products that I would believe they’re consuming normally anyway, you know, somebody’s just like, ah, I consume, I need protein post-workout, or I need an electrolyte to help me get through because I’m sweating profusely. And I want to just make sure I’m not cramping up, or my muscle tissue has what’s necessary to get through this endurance training session. Or whatever the case may be. And so we can definitely start with that and then get fancier from there.

Chris Cooper: (13:53)

That’s great, man. I can personally attest to catalyte is my favorite Thorne product. And if you have endurance athletes in your gym, they’re probably taking noom tablets anyway. Catalyte is just way better and comes from a better source. So if we start off with those five or half dozen, anyway, the next question that a lot of gym owners come up with is like, well, how much do I inventory? You know, if I’ve only got a thousand dollars this month, I don’t wanna tie that up in inventory. So what some companies have done is they’ve created like an online storefront for you. And so your clients can just be given your URL or your affiliate link, and, you know, they buy online, you don’t stock anything and the company ships it. One of those companies is Thorne and Thorne uses a dispensary system. So Mike, can you maybe walk us through how the dispensary works?

Mike Shelly: (14:45)

Sure. It’s exactly like you had articulated, Chris. It’s effectively an online store front that somebody, you can curate the line down to these more simple solutions, the five or half dozen that we talked about, to make it easy for them so that you don’t have to carry any inventory. Thorne will ship the product for you to the client. The client will effectively have their own login that will then be technically tied to the gym or the facility. And the commission margins are basically still the same as if you were to stock it wholesale to retail, brick and mortar. So average is ballpark about 47%. The other thing that I think is a differentiating factor from Thorne’s side that is hopefully business friendly is that we don’t have any minimum order requirements. So even if you did wanna have some on the shelf, which I think is a good idea, but we’re not gonna beholden you to,

Mike Shelly: (15:49)

Oh, you have to get a case or you have to get set dollar amount to get this at wholesale pricing. We don’t do that. If you just wanted to purchase one bottle, you can do that. Free shipping is over $99. It’s pretty easy to get to that. With having some product stock on the shelves, I find that most gyms are successful that have those staples that are on site, if you will. Anything fancier, you can drive to the online dispensary for them. And then, like I said, the client can just purchase it at their leisure. You’ll be able to see all the information. And then the margin is effectively still the same, wholesale to purchase price. There’s an a bit, there’s an option for them to offer a discount to the client if they wanted to. That’s totally up to the gym’s discretion. But we do have that capability of doing that. No codes, none of that. So we tried to really create this system that was really business friendly to them so that we could remove a lot of the blocks, if you will, that would prevent them from doing it, you know, while forcing them to not have to pay so much up front in terms of money for inventory.

Chris Cooper: (17:03)

Okay. So one of the tips that we’re going to share in this free guide, and you can get it through a link in the show notes, or you can join, and we’ll just give it to you. One of the tips that we’re gonna share there is a taster night. So in this case you would wanna have a little bit of inventory on hand, so you can mix up a few samples, do some, you know, bring a buddy workout or whatever, and give away some samples to try. So if I was going to invest $500, let’s say in stocking and inventory, what should I bring in, Mike? Like, would you get two different flavors of protein or would you get five different supplements or how would you do it?

Mike Shelly: (17:42)

I would probably start very simple. Maybe catalyte and aminos and one of the proteins, just to kind of introduce it to people because this is sort of their first and you don’t wanna, I think, make it too complicated right out the gate. So that you then focus on, you know, something where they’re not gonna buy it initially in some cases, which is why you do the taste test night, you know, if they haven’t tasted it. And so, but we find that the conversion rates are pretty high because people kind of sit and they taste and they go, actually, this is really good, you know? And then you can start to tell that story of like, there’s no artificial ingredients, there’s no sweeteners, there’s no, you know, stuff like that in there. But usually about three is what I see works really well, depending on the direction you want to go.

Mike Shelly: (18:33)

At the CrossFit games last year, a little quick story, one of the things that we had catalyte and amino complex in the dispensing machines, we ended up mixing them together, believe it or not. And it tasted really, really good. So that, yeah, people were like, I just want the blend. Just give me the blend and I’m good. And so you can combine them too. You can do two in a combo to see, and we’ve done that at a few facilities as well, and you kind of get the person that’s like, wow, that’s actually really good. And so that’s a way to do that too. And we’re not talking about very many skews. I mean, if you just did that, that’s two skews. If you wanted to add the protein, there’s three, you know, and one tub easily serves a lot of samples in all honesty. So to do this from an investment perspective, really isn’t very much. And usually I find people then go, okay, this is really cool. Where do I get it? Well, you can either buy it at the front or you can go to the dispensary and have it set up, and then it’ll be shipped to your house in a few days.

Chris Cooper: (19:36)

All right, man, I love it. The next way is one that I think is even more appropriate for coaches, but some coaches might feel a little weird about it at first. And that is, you’re sitting down with a client at their goal review and you’re looking at their nutrition log and you’re saying, you’re just not getting enough protein. And they say, I know I’m trying, I’m trying. And you say, have you ever tried a protein supplement? And then, you know, maybe that’s when you recommend it. But Mike, like, is there a better way for you to make one-on-one recommendations to each of your clients who need supplements?

Mike Shelly: (20:12)

There’s a couple ways that you could probably do this. I have seen some of the best facilities that are incorporating it in the scenario that you’re talking about as a part of a nutrition program where, you know, they’re like, okay, how do I do this? It’s here. You’re like, here’s your list. Well, where do I get that? It’s on the dispensary. You can add it here. There’s a way to make the recommendations on the back end if you wanted to utilize that tool set as well, that’s an option also. So you can hit ’em from multiple angles, but that personal connection where they’re sitting down with the nutrition coach is usually the best way to do that. And you can drive them to whatever point of sale. You know, I think it’s the most appropriate if it’s at the front desk or if it’s organizing it on the back end from a dispensary side to do that. But I know obviously as Two-Brain sort of shifts and moves into nutrition coaching, this is gonna be something that I think is a huge part that can get added into that and just being the right tool for the right time, if you will. I think all we’ve ever seen ourselves as at Thorne is just the right tool when somebody wants to pull it out. Did that answer that question that you’re looking for?

Chris Cooper: (21:36)

Yeah, man, and to go even deeper, what should a coach be feeling like when they have a client who’s just not hitting their goals and they dig into their diet and they determine like, okay, this person actually could use a supplement. How should they broach that subject? What should they be cautious of? Should they feel weird about it or not?

Mike Shelly: (21:57)

I don’t think that they should feel weird. I think it comes down to being really honest about what the client wants to accomplish, because if they have, if you’re reviewing a nutrition log with them and they’re hitting like 80% of it, right. And you just can see like, okay, you know, you’re only drinking water during a workout, you can see that maybe you need a little bit of help either through consuming electrolytes or maybe doing aminos kind of around the lift. If that’s the case, they can give it a shot. And then they’ll probably notice the performance side supported quite a bit by utilizing that, or even adding the post workout shake, if it’s appropriate to just say, Hey, look, I mean, the reality is you’re in here doing all of the work, but this is one hour.

Mike Shelly: (22:56)

If you will, right. You’ve got 23 others in the rest of the day that you have to then utilize to basically help you. Like, we all know we’re not building muscle during the lift. Right. You’re tearing the system down. And so the question then is, well, how much are you building it back up in the off time? Are you sleeping well, are you eating well? Are you supplementing appropriately? If you should be. And I think that’s how you can probably broach that topic so that it doesn’t come from, you know, it comes from a good place of like, my intentions are obviously just to help you increase your performance level. The reality is is that there are tactics that you can utilize and tool sets to help you with this, metabolically speaking. Postworkout, you have a pretty big window, or I should say a smaller window there to do something.

Mike Shelly: (23:51)

If you wanted to do that, right. If you wanted to incorporate postworkout nutrition or supplementation, that’s where you’d be utilizing a tool. And so I think if the client is ready for it, by all means. It was a joke. I’ll tell you a quick, funny story. When I was in the training world, I would have moms that would come in with youth athletes that are like, I want my son to be really explosive. And I’m like, okay, your son eats corn dogs and pizza, and can’t do 10 pushups. And they’re like, what creatine should I buy? I’m like, I’m sorry. Like, I don’t think that you should buy creatine. Like, I know this is crazy. I’m not going to push powder because the reality is, is that steak and potatoes and training hard is going to do way more for that person than it is to utilize something that’s just a bandaid approach. Right? And so I think if we know that this person is already down the route and checking all the boxes for all these things, then you can easily comfortably say, you’re totally ready to do this. This is another piece that can help you unlock something or next level of performance. And then, you know, let’s just see where it goes from there.

Chris Cooper: (24:59)

All right, man. So this leads us to a third tip that you can get from this guide. And there’s lots more in there. So you can just download it for free from the show notes or at But one tip that you can do is if you stock, or if you generally even recommend five different supplements, you can have that list right in front of you. And when a client is sitting across from you, you can be looking at their nutrition tracking log or their habit sheet or whatever it is. And you can just go down your list and you can say, okay, well, you know, looks like your lifts are improving. So I’m gonna scratch creatine off the list. I don’t think you need that right now. And you’re not really outside in the heat doing a lot of endurance based stuff. So I don’t think you need an electrolyte. We can scratch that off the list. Now a whey protein though, I think might be a good idea. And what you’re doing there is you’re just kind of building trust, but also demonstrating to the client, I’m not just pushing stuff on you because I’m making an extra dollar here.

Mike Shelly: (25:53)

Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think the most important thing, and this comes from, I believe how not only the most successful gyms function in terms of a client-gym relationship, but even how Thorne functions from a client-vendor relationship, if you will, is that it’s a hundred percent the way that you just discussed. Yes, we’re in the business of selling supplements, but in all honesty, I think if you were to pull anybody away from Thorne, we’re really in the business of increasing performance metrics with people and doing that with the highest possible quality tools that we can. In this case, obviously we sell supplements and we, in my opinion, make the best ones out there, but pushing the right product to the client when they’re ready is I think the most important thing, because at the end, what we want to do is elevate their performance.

Mike Shelly: (26:50)

And if anybody has any doubts about what we’re doing here at Thorne, I would then just go drive back to how we’re trying to jump into the diagnostic space, because we’re utilizing the data from that to really try to understand, and then make those recommendations appropriately to that person. Now that’s a whole other complicated system, but I only say that from the perspective of, we don’t wanna just push powder. Like, we’re getting away from “here’s your giant box that you need to buy” and that’s it, right? It’s very intentional consumption so that we get the response and elevate the health metrics and performance metrics of the people that trust us enough to utilize the product. So then a byproduct of that is that people are gonna ask like, Johnny, what’s going on with you? You’re just crushing it over here. You know? And it’s like, well, I started doing these little things, right. Small behaviors make massive changes for a lot of people. And I think even as something is doing, like you’re saying, it’s like, just start with protein, let’s see where we get. And then it’s always like, all right, now, what’s next. Right? Where, where do I go? How do I move forward from this? It’s like, well, alright, let’s just do it, but let’s do it in the best way for you.

Chris Cooper: (28:07)

I think that diagnostic conversation, and I know we’re going a little bit over the time that we planned here, but I think that’s really important because in the next year or two, more and more gyms are gonna keep exploring this option of, maybe it’s blood testing or whatever, what are the testing options available through Thorne? And how do they work for the gym owner?

Mike Shelly: (28:25)

Yeah. So right now we have a series of home test kits that gym members can utilize. It’s a series of either blood or urine, and this is all depending on the biomarker that’s being tested, or in the new case, if you want to do a stool test, we have a new patented microbiome collection wipe, which is first ever out to basically collect a stool sample, which is- if you’ve ever done a normal stool sample, you’ll appreciate the fact that we’ve come out with this collection method. And you know, the space is changing dramatically. It’s every week, it seems like, you know, and I think people are really interested in bringing healthcare to the home if you will, in a lot of cases, which is the jump into telehealth.

Mike Shelly: (29:25)

But I think they’re really concerned with the data because they want to, again, make the right choices for the right reasons and they wanna see what’s going on. That’s not for everybody. You don’t have to utilize this test to take advantage of it. We basically offer, at any point you can jump in on the product offering or the spectrum. You could do something as basic as a vitamin D test, if you wanted to. Or if you wanted to jump into a more elaborate test, there’s a weight management test that will test a lot more biomarkers. You could do the microbiome test that will give you a lot of information. And in a lot of cases, at the end, it will give you the information or the data that comes out of it, but it will help you make an informed choice as to what, maybe, you should consume depending on the data that you have.

Mike Shelly: (30:17)

So you may be too high in something, you may be too low in something. This is where it’s like, okay, where are my gaps now? Can I make a behavioral change from a food perspective to handle that? And if I do need to supplement, what might that be? You know? And so now you’re getting really targeted for what you’re doing. And so we just put that out there because we feel like it’s extremely valuable. It’s extremely responsible for how we envision moving forward, as it pertains to nutritional supplementation and health and nutrition. We just launched today, actually some larger venous blood draw kits that will, or tests that will test more biomarkers if you wanted to do that. And so we sort of feel like we wanted to give everybody an option to jump in on, again, at any degree that they felt is appropriate for them.

Mike Shelly: (31:13)

We’re working on expanding this beyond the United States, but right now it’s predominantly in the US. But the intent is obviously to just keep going down this route of testing and offering these different choices for the gym that wanted to take advantage of it. I will say from a medical professional side, making recommendations is also something that needs to be factored in, but usually we always encourage you to go down and seek out like a healthcare practitioner, if it is appropriate to do that. And that’s just so that obviously the gym owner doesn’t stray too far away from their lane, but there’s a network then to start today. I mean, we all know this, right? It’s like, you don’t wanna be making recommendations that a doctor wouldn’t make, but you can still get them started.

Mike Shelly: (32:06)

So if somebody is interested and you can be the tip of the spear, cause in a lot of cases, we all know that the trainer is the tip of the spear with people, you know? And so they could be coming in going, Hey, I’m dealing with this, like, have you talked to your doctor about this? They’re like, no. It’s like, well, okay, you should, right. And this is the group that’s figuring this out because they see them and they care the most about their health. And so I think that just highlights the dynamic of what it’s like to be a caring individual, to be a trainer that cares about the clients and then obviously trying to provide the very best that we can for them.

Chris Cooper: (32:38)

Alright. So that was great. Thanks Mike. An amazing response. And I think that question is gonna come up more in the next couple years, the testing, and I love that you led to working with other local practitioners. I think that’s just an amazing point and more gyms should be doing that. If you’d like this free guide on selling supplements in your gym, you can download it from the show notes. It’s co-published by Thorne at Two-Brain Business, you can go to and just ask for it and we’ll give it to you. Mike, thanks so much for being here, man. It’s been awesome to have you answer these questions. And it’s There’s a bunch of amazing resources on there too. Like if you have questions about greens or the gut and your microbiome, that’s a big topic. There’s resources there that you can share with your clients that you can learn yourself. There’s a podcast, and you know, Thorne is always right about answering questions. If you’re a Two-Brain client, you can go on the Two-Brain app, go to Thorne’s post in the marketplace and you can see some special, really awesome deals there for Two-Brain gyms too. Mike, thanks so much.

Mike Shelly: (33:42)

Chris, thank you so much as well. It’s always fun to be on with you, man. All right, bye.

Mike Warkentin: (33:49)

Thanks for listening to Two-Brain Radio, please subscribe for more episodes. Now Coop’s back with a final message.

Chris Cooper: (33:55)

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