Driving Through Sales Friction: Getting to “Yes”

A picture of Matt Temby with the title "Driving Through Sales Friction: Getting to 'Yes.'"

John Franklin (00:02):
Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of “Run a Profitable Gym.” I am your host, John Franklin, the CMO at Two-Brain Business. Here with me this week is my friend and colleague, Matt Temby, the head of sales at Two-Brain Business, and also the owner of Vault Health and Fitness. How are you doing, Matt Temby?

Matt Temby (00:21):
I’m doing great, John Franklin. How are you?

John Franklin (00:24):
I am fantastic. I am charged up. I normally don’t record this early in the morning, so you’re getting the front end of the coffee instead of the tail end. So, you came on the podcast a month or two ago. We talked about the front end of the sales process, so discovery and building up to the pitch, but we didn’t talk about the pitch itself and handling objections. So, if you haven’t listened to the first podcast, go listen to that. We will build off of that because this week we are talking all about driving through sales friction and getting to “yes.” So Matt, I think a good place to start is answering: Why do people get sales objections in the first place?

Matt Temby (01:05):
Yeah, the sales objections come from awareness to change or a lack of awareness to change. So, if you don’t do a good job in discovery, people aren’t going to be aware that they actually have a problem. The second piece to that is making a decision that they need to make a change. If you don’t have those two pieces before you go to drop the price of whatever your investment is for your service, you’re not going to get an answer today, which means that you are not going to be able to help that person change their life. So, you have to have awareness, you have to have decision before they can take action. That happens when you shake hands and exchange money.

John Franklin (01:38):
So one of the things we talked about was most gym owners rush the discovery process. I know we did a whole podcast on it, but what are the key components of that discovery process? What do you need to know before you get into the actual pitch of the service?

Matt Temby (01:51):
Yeah, you have to know what their problem is. You have to understand where they would like to go. So, current state is the problem; future state is their goal. Take them up to the top of the mountain so they can see a picturesque view of what their life could look like with your solution. Then you’ve got to bring them back down to the pit of despair through cost of inaction. Like what happens if nothing changes? Where are you going to be six months from now? And then ultimately it comes down to them taking ownership that they’re going to be the hero of the story, whether they like it or not. Nobody else can do it for them. Your service will help with that. But again, we can’t do it for our clients. So those are the four things that you really need to grab in discovery to get somebody ready to make a decision. Whether they decide yes or no, that is going to be what we talk about today, but we need to help them make a decision today.

John Franklin (02:39):
And based off of the training you do with gym owners and your team, where are people weakest? What are the parts that get glossed over the most?

Matt Temby (02:49):
In discovery or in the close?

John Franklin (02:50):
In discovery. We’re not closing just yet.

Matt Temby (02:53):
Not closing just yet. It’s really around the cost of inaction and ownership. You know, people will sit down across from you and say, “Hey, I want to make this change,” but if we don’t build some kind of consequence around—if you don’t do something and you wait another six months, are you going to be in the same spot? And sometimes they’ll think that they will be, but actually that probably becomes worse. It compounds over time. And so, we have to help them be aware of what is actually going to happen if they don’t do something about this. And then they have to know that they’re the king or queen of the castle. They have the key to the kingdom. So, if they really want to make a change, they have to step up and take action to do that.

John Franklin (03:34):
As gym owners, a lot of time is spent thinking about the competition. What are they doing? What are they charging? Will this person go over there? But Matt touched on a good point. A lot of times you are not competing against the competition. The real competition is inaction, that person going back to their couch, telling you, “Hey, I’m going to think about it.” You let them walk out the gym, and then they just do nothing, and maybe you have a conversation again six months down the road, but most of the time they’re on to the next thing after that. So, today we’re going to teach you how to get the “yes” and get the person closer to their goal. Now, assuming the discovery’s tight—and again, if you want a full hour breakdown of the discovery, go listen to the first podcast that I did with Matt a couple months ago—we move into the pitch. And so, what does the pitch look like in one of your gyms?

Matt Temby (04:22):
Yeah, the pitch really has to be customized based on what the person said that they are trying to accomplish. And you know, as Two-Brain’s talked about for a long time, using the prescriptive model; it’s our responsibility as a gym owner or as a coach to give them the true solution. The best solution to reach their goals is really what we need to customize, and we need to hit on the points of pain. So, if somebody says, “Hey, I really struggle with,” you know, if it’s a suburban mom, “I struggle with having freedom of time,” cool. Then you need to hit on like, “Hey, we have eight session times that you can get into, or you can do one-on-one with me, and we’ll just choose the time that works for you every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.” If it’s somebody who needs more accountability, then you should highlight your client journey over the first 100 days of like, “We’re going to check in with you at day 30, 60 and 90. We’re going to sit down with you and adjust your plan.” All these things that we’ve already built out in our businesses, now is the time to highlight specifically based on the pain and being the bridge to get them the thing that they actually want.

John Franklin (05:26):
Is this something where you’re going to deliver three different membership options and allow them to choose from a menu? Or are you giving them one membership option and then, based off what they say, upselling or downselling?

Matt Temby (05:38):
Yeah, you give them the one option that is going to get them to their goal the fastest.

John Franklin (05:43):
OK. And what does that look like? What are you looking for in the conversation to make the right assessment of which package is right for them?

Matt Temby (05:52):
Yeah, so, for most Two-Brain clients, they’re going to have an on-ramp, which is one-on-one personal training to make sure that people are training safely, efficiently and that you’re building some kind of one-on-one connection with that person. So, you’re going to have that depending on how it’s packaged. So, I’ll just use one of my gyms for example. We start with one-on-one, and then you can package that with 12 weeks of group. And we do a front-end nutrition program that is like our bonus to you because it’s a self-guided program. So, you get all of that plus your accountability checkpoints and your body composition scans. So, I’m going to present that as a paid in full price, and I’m going to ask them how they feel, and then they’re going to respond, and then we’re going to get into objection handling from that. You have to expect that there’s going to be objections.

Matt Temby (06:35):
It’s kind of like going to the prom, like the prom ends in a dance, but it doesn’t start with that. You got pictures at your friend’s house, you have dinner, you have whatever games. It’s been a long time since I went to prom. And then you have the dance, so you have to be ready for that. If you don’t come prepared, you’re going to be like the awkward kid standing in the corner that’s not having any fun, and you’re not going to change any lives if you do that. So that’s what you would do. I would present that for that person based on the things that they had told me. Now, if that’s not the right fit for them, if they’re never going to go into group, I’m just going to say, “Hey, we’re going to start you with one-on-one training, and we’re going to start two times a week, and then we’ll assess after the first month.”

John Franklin (07:10):

And I love what you said there. You pitch the paid in full price, and you ask them how they feel. And this is something that you’ve championed within Two-Brain as a business that has been a game changer for Two-Brains Business at a much larger ticket than the average gym is doing. So, let’s talk through that because I think that one little tip, if we kind of work through that a little bit, that can make a dramatic difference for a lot of the gym owners listening here. And it’s something that could help them pay for mentorship relatively quickly instead of dripping in payments throughout the course of a year, two years. Being able to get that all on the front end is incredible and useful, especially if you are someone who is struggling and trying to figure out where the rent and payroll money are coming every month. So, explain it to me exactly how you would pitch the pricing for your higher ticket program. Explain what your avatar is first, and then we can go from there.

Matt Temby (08:07):
Yeah. OK. So, I’ll use one of my other studios. It’s a small group personal training studio. So, we have a six-week program where you’re going to pay for four weeks because we don’t believe in discounts, we’re going to give you two additional weeks, and then we have our nutrition program—that same program at the other gym, we’re going to include that. So, it’s 400 if you train with us two times per week, 500 for three times, 600 if you train four times, and 700 if you train five times per week. So, let’s just role play this out, and we’ll see where this goes. So, John, based on everything that we’ve shared today, I believe that the three times a week option is going to be the best fit to reach you to your goals. So, the investment for this program, it’s going to be $500 upfront. So how do you feel about that?

John Franklin (08:55):
It was a little more than I was looking to spend to be honest.

Matt Temby (08:59):
OK. Tell me a little bit more about that.

John Franklin (09:02):
I did group training, so I’m coming from a background of Orangetheory, like I told you, and I was paying about 139 a month there. I know you said the class sizes are smaller, so I was expecting it to be a little more expensive but not four times as expensive.

Matt Temby (09:20):
OK, well John, just to make sure I understand what conversation we’re having, you know, just a minute ago you said that you feel like this is the right plan for you. Do you still feel that way, or has the price changed that?

John Franklin (09:30):
I think this training is going to be more effective for me than what I was doing before.

Matt Temby (09:34):
OK. And you believe that it can get you to the goal that you shared with me about adding five pounds of muscle over the next year?

John Franklin (09:41):
I think so.

Matt Temby (09:42):
Well, do you think so? Or do you know? So, because we need to make sure that you have confidence that this is the right thing for you.

John Franklin (09:48):
I know if I’m able to consistently do the work that this should work for me. Yeah.

Matt Temby (09:54):
Right. OK. And so, all those details and that smaller session size and all of these touch points, do you believe that that will actually get you to show up to the gym three times per week so we can get that muscle on your frame?

John Franklin (10:05):
Yeah, that definitely sounds like something I was missing in my old gym.

Matt Temby (10:09):
OK. So, let’s put the money aside. We’re going to tackle that here in just a second. So, do you want to do the program, John?

John Franklin (10:16):
Yeah, I do.

Matt Temby (10:17):
OK. So, it’s just a matter of ones and zeros and figuring out the right payment structure for you? Is that the conversation we’re having?

John Franklin (10:25):
Yeah, I mean, I definitely don’t think I’d be able to put down 500 today.

Matt Temby (10:30):
OK, perfect. Well, that’s helpful for me to know. So, what we can do is we can put you onto a payment option where we pay for this weekly over the course of the first six weeks of the program. So instead of paying upfront the 500, it’s going to be 600, but we’re going to break that down into $100 per week. Is that something that you’re able to move forward with even though you don’t have the 500 today?

John Franklin (10:54):
Is it something where we could do the 500 over the six weeks, like weekly?

Matt Temby (10:58):
We’re not able to do that because there’s a risk for us if you’re not going to be consistent, so we want to make sure that there’s going to be a little bit more skin in the game because we’re splitting up these payments, and there’s some logistics, and it’s going to take more time for us to set up your payment plan.

John Franklin (11:13):
OK. Let’s do it.

Matt Temby (11:15):
OK, great.

John Franklin (11:16):
I like the neg. Matt just assumed that I needed to put on five pounds of muscle, just really cutting me down a notch in the consultative selling process right there. Alright, so that was great. So, you asked for the full payment upfront, asked how I felt, got conviction to the program, and then teased out that it was maybe a lump sum issue and offered a solution in the form of a payment plan.

Matt Temby (11:39):
Yeah. And you gave me that information. So, if you didn’t volunteer that, that’s the next question is like, “Do you have the $500 and you’re just like a little concerned about giving that to me, or do you not have the $500?” So, let’s just go back and role play that you don’t have the $500.

John Franklin (11:56):
OK. You can hit me with the—I think you were at the ones and zeros part. I’m assuming that would be the—

Matt Temby (12:02):
John, is this just a simple case of figuring out the ones and zeros?

John Franklin (12:07):
I just don’t have the $500 to get started.

Matt Temby (12:11):
OK. Well, if you don’t mind me asking, so it sounds like we’re sitting on the same side of the table, and we’re just trying to get a solution of how we can get you started. Is that right?

John Franklin (12:20):
Yeah, I would like to figure out a way to make this happen.

Matt Temby (12:25):
Perfect, so John, we have a payment plan that we can offer to you, but before we even tackle the details on that, let’s just figure out where you can potentially get this money from. So, I’m just going to ask you, if you’re OK with it, a few questions so that you can think through some of the resources that you might have access to. So, let’s start, like do you think that you have any cash laying around the house or maybe like stuffed in your couch cushions at home?

John Franklin (12:50):
A little bit, but definitely not $500. That’s a lot of money in the couch cushion.

Matt Temby (12:55):
OK. Alright. And then do you have a savings account that you don’t typically tap into for things like this that you might have access to?

John Franklin (13:02):
I have my health savings account. Yeah.

Matt Temby (13:07):
OK, that’s perfect. We can definitely use that. Do you think that you had the 500 in there, or do we need to continue to be resourceful and find other methods?

John Franklin (13:15):
I think I have around something like that, and I may be a little to hobble the rest together from underneath my couch cushion.

Matt Temby (13:24):
OK. Well, I’m going to give you just a couple other options just so that you have these in the back of your mind. If you have a credit card that you don’t typically use, that could be an option that you could put this on. If you typically use a credit card, you might have just like your regular bank checking account and then something else that you could probably do. If you have people in your life who love you and usually give you not super practical gifts for your birthday or for Christmas, instead of them giving you that thing, you could probably just ask them for money in advance, and like hold the gift and just tell them, “Hey, I’m doing this important thing. Could you give that sock and underwear package that I’m going to get in Christmas at Christmas—can I just get that money upfront?” So those would be some other options if you don’t have enough in the couch cushion and in the HSA savings account.

John Franklin (14:12):
Alright, so let’s engineer a way to make this happen.

Matt Temby (14:16):
Cool. Let’s do it.

John Franklin (14:16):
And then I’m assuming if it was something where it just wasn’t there, you could downsell into a smaller package.

Matt Temby (14:22):
Correct? Yep. So, if you couldn’t do the three times a week training at 500 for that start, I’d drop you down to the 400 at two times a week. And then if that wasn’t an option and if you’re a gym owner who doesn’t have two locations that are like within 15 minutes, this probably isn’t a good option for you. But then I would talk to you about my other location and doing an onboarding program for one-on-one into group because it would be less of an investment in the long term.

John Franklin (14:50):
Right. And that’s the asterisk here. If you’re listing along as a CrossFit gym owner, I’m assuming since it’s a small group training facility that the people, like how often do you get into a situation where someone doesn’t have $500 to their name to get started?

Matt Temby (15:05):
Yeah, it happens weekly.

John Franklin (15:07):
Weekly. But it’s less frequent than maybe some of your larger group gyms.

Matt Temby (15:12):
Yeah. Yeah.

John Franklin (15:13):
OK. So just an asterisk there—like it’s a more premium gym, you’re going to have a more premium clientele. This may happen a little bit more if you are lower ticket or an access facility that’s maybe trying to sell some personal training. So, just a caveat there. OK. So, we handled that, and that was basically the—it’s a pricing objection right there. So that is one objection. Let’s kind of talk through the most common objections because we may have skipped over that step getting into role play here.

Matt Temby (15:45):
Yeah. So the most common objections that you’re going to have are: think about it, which is probably the number one that you’re going to get in a gym setting, you’re going to get partner occasionally, and then you’re going to have money, fear or logistics. Now nobody’s coming out and saying, “I’m afraid,” right? You have to—as you build your sales skills and you have more and more reps, you’re going to identify, and you’re going to have to label that for the person. And you’ll have to ask, “Do you think that this might be a little bit of fear coming out?” And then there’s four different types of fears that we can talk about, and then there’s logistics. And logistics is the simplest one to solve. That’s typically like, “Hey, I have spring break coming up, or I’m going to be traveling for work next month, and I don’t want to miss a week.” Those ones are really simple to handle.

John Franklin (16:29):
And that’s probably one of the most common that people are getting right now as we go into the summertime, especially if you are anywhere on the coast. Everyone has travel, vacation, summer house, all those things. So how do you handle the logistics objection because I’m sure that is one that our listeners get frequently?

Matt Temby (16:49):
Yeah. Do you want to role play this, or you want me just to kind of walk you through it?

John Franklin (16:52):
You can just say, if we get to the end, I can tell you, “Hey, this all sounds good. I want to sign up, but in September. I’m going to be traveling a lot with the kids, and it just doesn’t make sense for me to do something like this right now if I’m going to have to stop for two weeks to go to Italy and then stop for another two weeks when I go to California.”

Matt Temby (17:10):
Yeah. Got it. OK. So, John, do you typically do a lot of travel throughout the course of the year?

John Franklin (17:16):
It’s a lot more in the summertime when the kids are off school.

Matt Temby (17:18):
OK. But it’s something that’s going to be part of your regular lifestyle for the rest of your life?

John Franklin (17:24):
Probably in the summertime, yeah.

Matt Temby (17:25):
OK, cool. And you said that you want—like, part of your goal is just to be consistent so that you feel better and that you have more energy for life in general. So, seems like this is going to pop up every nine months. So, what I would suggest is we can take care of the logistics. I’m not worried about you being gone for a month this summer. Like we will handle the billing stuff appropriately for you. But is the program still something that you want to do?

John Franklin (17:50):

Matt Temby (17:51):
OK. Well today’s July 1st, and you said that you’re going to travel in August and then again in September. So, you know, you could punt this another 10 weeks, 10, 12 weeks, or what we can do is we can get you started now and then, like I said, my team and I, we will handle the four weeks that you’re going to be gone. That’s no problem. But that way we can start making progress toward your goal of being consistent and having more energy. And you’re probably going to enjoy these trips that you have coming up in August and September a little bit more if you do that. So, would you like to go ahead and get started today, and then we’ll take care of that other stuff later?

John Franklin (18:26):
I would love to, Matt.

Matt Temby (18:27):
Cool, then let’s do it. So, when it comes to logistics, you have to put their mind at ease. And the simplest way to do that, when you hear that logistical objection, just say, “Hey, that’s no problem. We’ll take care of it.” And then you as the business owner, and you can empower your team to say, “That’s not a problem.” And then you guys can figure it out in the back office on the backend of how you’re going to go about handling that for this new client that you’re going to help change their life.

John Franklin (18:55):
Alright, so we handled it’s too expensive or some questions about the pricing. We just went through logistics, which is probably one of the more common ones that you’re getting. Now let’s talk about the spousal objection. So how do you handle the spousal objection?

Matt Temby (19:12):
Yep. So, when somebody says, “Yeah, that sounds great, I just need to go home and talk to my spouse about it,” you are going to lower sales resistance. Because if you’re like, “Well what do you need to talk to your spouse about?” Right? You’re going to trigger sales resistance. They’re going to want to get out of that conversation as quickly as possible. So, you’re going to say, “Yeah, that’s no problem. I have a partner too. I totally get that. Now before you go away and have that conversation, I just want to make sure that everything that we went through today—that you believe that this can get you to X, Y, Z goal.” So, we want to double down on confidence in the program. They’re going to say “yes” again because we already got that tied out earlier in the conversation. Then I’m going to ask them again why they feel that way, reaffirm that.

Matt Temby (19:54):
So you get a double tie down there and then you say, “OK, and when you take this time to go away and talk to your spouse about this, what’s coming up in your mind that makes you want to have that conversation?” And so they’re either going to give you a different objection, they’re going to give you the real objection of like, “Hey, we have a vacation coming up,” or “We’re going to be spending a month away at the lake house,” or, “Well, I’ve just got to talk through the money with them,” or “I’m concerned because like I’ve done a program like this in the past, and it didn’t go super well.” So that would give you the real objection, right? So, then you can dig into one of those three. Now if they stick with it of like, “Well this is just how we make our decisions,” then you’re going to try to punch a hole through that of like, “OK, did you talk about this meeting that you were coming to? Did you guys make a decision on that together?”

Matt Temby (20:44):
“Well, no.” I just saw it online, and I booked it in.” “OK, so you don’t make all of your decisions together. So, what about this decision is it that makes this a little bit different?” And then they’ll probably say, “Well, it’s the money.” And so now we have the real objection is that it’s actually a money objection. It’s not a partner objection. Now I will share that there was somebody in inside our mentorship group that had two partner objections last week. She had posted about it in the group, and I’m usually I’m not a fan of this, but she said, “OK, you need to talk to your partner. Like why don’t you just call them right now?” And both of them called their partners from the gym and their partners are like, “Yeah, go ahead and go for it.” And when I took a step back and thought that through, I actually love that because we already know that when somebody leaves without making a decision, they haven’t taken action to change. The likelihood that you ever see or hear from that person again is very low.

Matt Temby (21:37):
So if you actually care, you’re going to stay in the pocket, be a little bit uncomfortable. If you’re not great at having these conversations and challenging them to make a decision today while they’re with you, it’s easier to be part of the conversation today than you just taking an order of like, “Yep, I’m signing up,” or “No, I never want to talk to you again” when they talk to you next Monday. So, I thought she did a really great job by just pushing the envelope and saying, “Hey, that’s cool. I’ve got a couple minutes. I can step out. Why don’t you call your spouse right now so that you guys can make a decision together right now?”

John Franklin (22:07):
Simple enough. Alright, I don’t think we need to role play that one, but let’s break down the key point there: Many times, when given a spousal objection, it’s a smoke screen for another objection. So, you want to ask clarifying questions to see if you can tease out what the actual objection is. In some circumstances, if it is a spousal objection or you keep getting the runaround of “This is just how we make decisions,” and you feel comfortable, you ask that person to call their spouse while they’re at the gym, so they can make that decision there instead of doing another go around of trying to schedule getting them come in and close to sale. Is that right?

Matt Temby (22:44):
Yeah. And John, there’s a couple other ways—and I’ll share this in the podcast because I think that these are valuable resources—asking a question of like, “When you go away and have that conversation with your partner, is there any reason that they wouldn’t want you to get the support,” or insert whatever problems that they need, the accountability, the education, and the guidance, “to solve X, Y, Z?” You want to ask, “Is there any reason that they wouldn’t want you to get that?” And they’re probably going to say, “Well, no. They want me to do this.” And so, then you can kind of get into: Where is the objection? And the other way that you can go about this and something that you want to be really careful of is you don’t want to ask, “Well, what do you think that they would say?”

Matt Temby (23:30):
Because now you’re putting that person in a position where they have to read the magic eight ball of what they think their partner may or may not say. So, what you would ask is, “When you’ve had conversations like this in the past, what have been some objections for your partner being on board with you starting a program like this?” And then they’re going to tell you, “This is what we’ve worked through in the past,” so that you have more information that you can either guide them because if they’re adamant about having that conversation, you can help with frameworks there. But oftentimes let’s say this is somebody who’s trying to lose body fat, and they’ve done keto, and they’ve done If It Fits Your Macros, they might say, “Well, I’ve done programs, and I failed.” That actually is a fear of yesterday.

Matt Temby (24:18):
They’re fearing that their partner is not going to support them because they’ve failed at this. And so, it comes back to them actually showing up and doing the work. So those are some things that will be helpful when you are going through, when you’re navigating that partner objection. The other piece would be when you’re going through this is asking, “If the price was, let’s just call it half, would you still need to talk to your partner?” So, like if it’s a paid in full program, it’s 1,500 for a month. If I said, “If this program was $500, would you still need to talk to your partner about it?” and if they said no, it’s a money objection. And so, then you go into the money dig.

John Franklin (24:59):
Got it. I think that is helpful for a lot of people listening here. So why do people hit you with the “I need to think about it” objection in the first place?

Matt Temby (25:09):
Yeah, it’s because there’s a lack of confidence. So, it’s either a lack of confidence in the plan that you’ve outlined for them today, lack of confidence in the process that they’re going to have to take to accomplish the goal, or a lack of confidence that they’re actually going to reach the goal, right? Like people ultimately are paying for a result in their problem being solved. And so, it’s either something that you did in or that you lacked in the pitch or in discovery—you didn’t challenge them with real questions. Rapport, oftentimes people think gets built by talking about the ball game or the weather or a recent trip to a similar place, but where it actually comes from is asking challenging questions that digs into why this is important to that person. Because most people won’t ask real questions. When they find somebody who is sitting across from them who asks the real questions, who makes them think and gets them to emotionally open up, that is where rapport is actually built, and that’s where trust is established, so that part’s really important.

John Franklin (26:11):
So, they hit you with the, “I need to think about it” objection. It is typically a lack of confidence in they think you cannot solve their problem with the thing that you pitched them basically, and they want to defer the decision or get out of the conversation, right?

Matt Temby (26:27):
Yeah, you got it.

John Franklin (26:27):
So as the sales guy, what if you’ve botched the front end of the pitch or you’ve botched the discovery? How do we dig ourselves out of this hole?

Matt Temby (26:36):
Yeah, so you’re going to do the same thing that you did with the partner objection. You’re going to go back, and you’re going to say, “Hey, you know what? That’s not a problem. Like you can take all the time in the world that you need to think about it. Now before you do, I just want to ask, in your opinion, do you believe that everything that we’ve gone through today can get you to X, Y, and Z?” So, you’re getting them to double down on this. If they say no, now you can have a real conversation about why that is. If they say yes, you’re going to ask them why, they’re going to give you the double tie down, and then you’re going to say, “Hey, before you go ahead and take some time to think about it, what’s coming up that makes you want to do that?”

Matt Temby (27:15):
And then they might give you, because think about it, generally speaking, is a smoke screen. So, this is the opportunity for them to just open up and share that with you. Now if they don’t, then you’re going to have to kind of dig into this. So sometimes they might say, “Wait, yeah, I just need to do some research on this.” “Well, you can take all the time in the world to research this. What are you looking for that’s going to help you make this decision?” They could say like, “I just need to see like some social proof.” Now you can also say, “Hey, you could end up spending years researching this, but generally we already know in our heart what we want to do, and it’s OK for you to say no. So, if I can challenge you to make a decision today, do you want to do this program, or do you not want to do this program?” And then you lay it out, it’s a binary question where they can make a decision there. So that’s definitely one way that you can go about doing that.

John Franklin (28:09):
And do you get “no” frequently when you ask them, “Hey, do you think this program is going to get you to your goals?” Do you hear “no” a lot? I don’t remember getting a lot of nos.

Matt Temby (28:18):
No. Generally speaking, it’s not—usually for fitness sales, it’s going to be a lack of their confidence of showing up, doing the work, and getting the outcome because they’ve done something in the past and they failed. And so that’s why the pitch is so important for piecing together we’re going to do this, this, and this. You don’t have to say, “Because you failed at this in the past and you told me you didn’t get enough strength training at Orangetheory.” You just have to listen, and then you have to present it in a way that makes sense so that they can grab onto it, have that confidence, so that when it’s time to exchange money and move forward that they’re ready.

John Franklin (28:52):
So, you’re trying to reset, you have to go two steps backwards in the conversation, and then get back to the actual decision itself is what I’m hearing. Is that right?

Matt Temby (29:01):
For sure. Yep.

John Franklin (29:03):
So you’d hit it with the—I gave you, “I need to think about it,” and you would say something along the lines of, “Do you believe the program is going to get you to the goal that we set out in the discovery phase?” They’re going to say “yes” most likely. And then what are the exact words you you’d use from there?

Matt Temby (29:21):
Well, I mean there’s—depending on where they’re at. So, if they said, “Yeah, I just always take 24 hours to think something through,” then I would challenge them to make a decision of like, “Alright John, so you always take 24 hours to make a decision. You’re saying now, you shared with me that you’ve been thinking about this for the last nine months, and since you’ve been out of your routine, since you relocated down to Tequesta, do you think that your decision-making process is part of the reason why you’re in this position that you’re at today?”

John Franklin (29:55):
They’ll probably say something along the lines of, “Yes, I know I’ve been needing to do something for a little while now, and I just want to make sure that I’m doing the right thing because I’ve been burnt from stuff like this before.”

Matt Temby (30:08):
OK. And when you say that you’ve been burnt, what exactly do you mean by that?

John Franklin (30:13):
I’ve just been promised a lot of things in conversations like this that haven’t panned out.

Matt Temby (30:18):
OK. In those programs that you did proceed with, did other people have success in those programs?

John Franklin (30:25):
No, not really. Well, maybe some of them. I’m not sure. It’s an Orangetheory class, so it’s a little less of a conversation about what my goals are and more along the lines of “Do you like the workout? Yes or no.”

Matt Temby (30:37):
OK, understood. And why do you think that you didn’t have the success that you were looking for in that process?

John Franklin (30:43):
I just got bored of the workouts. I didn’t feel like anyone was checking up on me.

Matt Temby (30:47):
OK. And so, when you got bored and people weren’t checking in on you, did that lead to you being less consistent?

John Franklin (30:53):
Yeah, I fell off the wagon for sure.

Matt Temby (30:55):
OK. So, I mean, if we’re having a real conversation, do you think that that’s actually why you didn’t reach your goal?

John Franklin (31:01):
It’s definitely a big part of it, yeah.

Matt Temby (31:03):
OK. And so, the consistency that I outlined in this plan that we’re going to lead you through, do you think that these are the pillars that are going to be in place that will actually make sure that you are consistent this time around? Because it seems like that was the missing piece of the recipe last time.

John Franklin (31:20):
It definitely sounds a lot more promising than what I was doing before. Yeah.

Matt Temby (31:23):
OK. So, John, you said that you want to take time to think this through. You’re going to go out, and you’re going to research us on Google, and you’re going to either hold on to all of the five-star reviews, or you’re going to be looking for the one two-star review, and you’re going to make your decision on what you’re actually looking for. So, are you looking for a reason to do the program or not to do the program right now?

John Franklin (31:47):
I’m looking for validation that this is going to work for me if I make the investment that I’m going to get where I need to go.

Matt Temby (31:54):
OK, and when you first came in, you saw our wall of testimonials. Was there something missing from the success that those hundreds of people that have worked with us over the last seven years, was there something missing in that to give you that confidence that you can be up on that wall like them?

John Franklin (32:10):
No, I definitely, if I could turn out like Steve there who put on that five pounds of muscle that I’m just looking for, that would be great.

Matt Temby (32:18):
And John, at this point in the conversation, I don’t need you to know everything that I know and that my team knows of how we’re going to get you there. I’m going to need you to trust us that over the last seven years, we’ve done this with hundreds of clients and that as long as you meet us in the middle and show up and do the work that we’re going to give you, that you can be with Steve and have the five to maybe 10 pounds of muscle if we get you on some TRT. So, what do you want to do in this moment? Are you ready to shake hands and move forward so we can get you to where you want to be?

John Franklin (32:50):
TRT? There’s a secret menu? I didn’t know about that.

Matt Temby (32:53):
Yeah, that’s a … we … talk about that …

John Franklin (32:57):
Alright. And that’s what I need to get biceps like you? OK, cool. Let’s move forward with that then. Cool. So, we went two steps backwards. We built the confidence, and then we got to the actual pitch itself. And then it’s not going to work every time, but it’s definitely going to work more times than if you just say, “OK, Steve, let’s book a follow up next whatever,” and let them walk out the door.

Matt Temby (33:16):
Yeah, you’re never seeing Steve again. And it’s really important that we push people, and it’s not because we want to be sleazy salespeople; it’s because we actually care. And if you had a real conversation in discovery, you’re establishing the base of I care about you as a human, even though I don’t really know you, but you trusted me enough to book time to either meet on Zoom or to meet in person, to have a conversation about something that’s very intimate and private in your life, which is your health. And so, my responsibility as a professional within this industry is to help you make a decision to get the outcome. When a doctor prescribes medication, when we have an issue, people don’t say, “Yeah, doc, I need to think about filling the script.” No, they run to their local pharmacy, and they get it filled as quickly as possible because that’s what the doctor said.

Matt Temby (34:04):
Well, the doctor established their credibility through their credentials that’s on the wall behind them. We do that in the gym with social proof. It’s basically all of our marketing efforts and then also branding inside of our sales room, right? And so, we need to have that credibility and so when we say, “Hey, this is the right thing for you,” the think about it wouldn’t be a thing if this was the doctor’s office. So, you have to build that confidence back to, again, plan, process and then ultimately the results, which is what they’re paying for. They’re not paying for your time; they’re paying for the outcome that they said that they wanted. So, it’s your responsibility to push them to a yes or no. Because if they say, “I need to think about it,” and they are afraid to tell you no, it’s OK to tell them, “Hey, like I’m an adult, you’re not going to hurt my feelings. You can tell me no if this is something that you’re out on. It would actually save us time if you’re not interested to focus on the people who actually do want our help.” But you get one shot to change this person’s life, so you have to push them, and you will feel better about it if you did.

John Franklin (35:05):
One thing worth noting here is throughout all of these objections, one of the things that you’re doing well is you are keeping control of the sales process. A lot of times with a novice sales rep or a gym owner who feels uncomfortable with sales, the tendency will be to let the prospect take the reins and run the conversation. Which if you think about that in terms of like a training session, you probably wouldn’t let that happen on the training floor where if you’re doing some type of upper body and the client’s like, “I just want to do core exercises every day; I need to get abs, so we’re only going to do core exercises here,” you probably wouldn’t allow that to happen. As a trainer, you would say, “Hey, this is my area of expertise.” And by taking this type of control and showing this confidence in the sales conversation, a lot of that parlays onto the training floor, especially if you are selling specialized small group coaching packages, which most people listening to this podcast will be. So, what are some tips you have for the gym owner listening on how to keep control throughout the entire sales conversation?

Matt Temby (36:17):
Yeah, I mean, when you’re driving your car and you have a passenger, do you ever let them reach across and grab the steering wheel when you’re driving? No. Like you push their hand off and say, “Hey, I’m in control here. Let me drive. I’m taking us to the destination. We’re going to get there safely.” And so, you just can’t allow it to happen, so you have to be confident that you know where it’s going. So, if you don’t have a process for your sales cycle, when you get somebody face to face with you, you need to make sure that that’s outlined and that you have practiced that. So, get on with your mom or a friend, and you need to role play with non-live rounds because once you go live, this is a real person, and you can change their quality of life if you can help them see that the program that you have will get them what they want.

Matt Temby (37:07):
So you have to have practice. Keep in mind the people that you’re having this conversation with, they only have this once or twice. You’re going to have this hundreds if not thousands of times. So, you should be much better at leading this conversation.  I have to find the problem, I have to understand the goal, I need to build cost of inaction, urgency through cost of inaction, and then I need to make sure that they take ownership, that they understand that they’re the hero of the story. Once you have those things, now I know I can go into the pitch, I’m going to customize the pitch for what they need, and then I feel confident handling the objections so I can get to a yes or no today. That is my job within the 30, 45 minutes or an hour that you have with them to get this person moving forward in their health and fitness journey. Like that is the goal. And when you know that this is the process, it’s very easy to follow the process.

John Franklin (38:00):
You spoke earlier about the inherent fear of being the sleazy sales guy. You don’t come from a sales background, and you had that fear, and you went from being OK to someone who’s one of the best at sales in the Two-Brain network. How did that happen? What did you do to get to that point? If you are talking to yourself five years ago, what advice would you give that person?

Matt Temby (38:26):
Yeah, I didn’t understand that selling is actually helping. Cooper wrote a book called “Help First,” and it’s a book about sales. And so, once I wrap my mind around like, “OK, if this person doesn’t make a decision today, it’s going to be really hard for me to ever have another conversation with them.” And usually, it’s going to be six to 12 months down the road, and they’re going to say, “Hey, I regret not doing this the first time.” The pain that caused me of like, “Oh, it was because I was not good at my job, and I didn’t help them make the right decision and push through their fear or push through the money objection or whatever it was, the logistics objection, that I didn’t know how to handle.” I was like, “I need to advance my skills as a professional both for sales and in my gyms.” And so, I invested in sales mentorship because I spent a lot of my day helping people make decisions. And that’s what I tell people when they’re like, “Hey, I don’t want to be sold to.” It’s like, “That’s fine. I’m not going to sell to you. I’m going to offer you help. It’s your problem. It’s my solution. It’s your decision. You get to decide what happens here. But my job is to help you make a decision today.”

John Franklin (39:35):
So Matt credits mentorship with a lot of his success in the sales process. If you are someone who’s struggling with this, get yourself a Two-Brain mentor. We have scripts, we have ways to handle objections, we work through some of these conversations. There are people always looking to role play the sales conversation within the Two-Brain groups. So, head over to, and you can book a call with maybe Matt or someone else on the team. If you need something a little more immediate, head over to It is our free Facebook group for gym owners. Matt is in there. I’m in there. People ask sales questions all the time. We’re happy to jump in and give you our 2 cents, but nothing replaces getting reps, and nothing replaces getting mentorship and coaching. Again, Matt, thanks for making the time to do this. If someone wants to go find you on the internet, where is the best place to find you?

Matt Temby (40:27):
Yeah, find me on Instagram @tembytraining, T-E-M-B-Y training. That’s probably the best spot to follow on. Now, John, if we can, can we give the listeners a bonus if they’ve listened this far?

John Franklin (40:38):
Yeah, let’s do it.

Matt Temby (40:39):
OK. So, I wanted to circle back to something that we talked about in partner because this is often, something that will come up. So, this is kind of a word track that you can use if somebody is adamant, “Yeah, I’ve got to talk to my partner.” So, what I would say to that person is, “OK, so when you go and have that conversation to your partner, they’re going to probably ask what the price is, right?” “Yeah, of course.” “OK. And so, the only data point that they know about this entire process is how much it costs, and they don’t understand how it’s going to solve the problems that you have. Is it really fair for you to take all of this information back to your partner and to put the responsibility on them to make a decision based on just the price?” And then that person typically says, “No, you’re right. That wouldn’t be fair, and it’s like they don’t have full context.” So, I’ll say, “OK, so based on that, do you really need to talk to your partner about this? Or is there something else that’s causing a lack of certainty of this being something that you’re ready to move forward with right now?” So that’s the bonus tip because you guys listened to the end. Always listen to the end of the podcast.

John Franklin (41:43):
And Matt does, he actually listens to the end of every podcast, which is—you’re one of the few, and we appreciate that about you, Matt. That is it. We’re going to call it for this week’s episode of “Run a Profitable Gym.” If you enjoy this, subscribe for more content to grow your business, and like I said, head over to Pop in there. We’re always there to help you answer any questions you have about running a profitable gym. I’m John Franklin signing off. We will see you next week, gym owners.

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