Episode 165: The Level Method

Episode 165: The Level Method

In business, the best storyteller wins.

One of the first things every entrepreneur does in the Incubator is to map their clients’ journey. That foundation helps us plan for better intake and retention. The client is the hero of their story; their coaches are the guides. 

The Level Method is based in science and math, but it’s powerful because it tells a story. As your client moves from Yellow to Red in the Front Squat, they know they’ve achieved something. Take the best elements of gaming, badging, and martial arts grading, and you have The Level Method.

At Two-Brain, we advocate services and products that can measurably improve your gym. We’re not interested in dumping more ideas on you; we want to share things that WORK.

The immediate benefit that most gym owners see from adding Level Method is an increase in 1:1 training revenue. But long-term, we’re tracking LEG and adherence too, because we know that a sticky story draws people back to the campfire.

We’ve been sharing Nate’s story since the start, and we’re big believers. 

 In 2016 Nathan developed what has become known as the Level Method. This is a completely unique, data-driven system that offers clients unparalleled insight into their fitness and progression. After implementing this tool at his own gym, Nathan has shared this powerful tool with many other gyms now providing unimaginably results for their members. Join us as we discuss the Level Method and Nathan’s experience in the CrossFit industry!


Don’t Forget about the 2019 Two Brain Summit, June 8-9 in Chicago! This year we have some amazing topics and guests for both yourself and your coaches. Click here to register and sign up now!


Contact Nathan:







Getting Things Done – https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Things-Done-Stress-Free-Productivity/dp/0142000280

Pomodoro Technique – https://francescocirillo.com/pages/pomodoro-technique



1:35 – Introduction to Nathan Holiday

4:46 – Developing a unique tool for clients and CrossFit owners, the Level Method

8:51 – How does the CrossFit Level Method work?

11:25 – The importance of highlighting a moment for a client’s experience

16:09 – The structure of the Level Method, Where does a beginner rank?

18:16 – The process of leveling up in the Level Method, Performing an Assessment

22:11 – Building a roadmap for your clients to reach their goal and stay engaged

28:15 – The difference between Objective and Relevance Testing

29:36 – The Level Method Phone App

30:57 – What are the next steps for the Level Method going forward

34:08 – Programming that goes along with the Level Method

37:54 – Testing the Level Method at the Level Method Gym

41:56 – Staying focused and putting a timer to your work

46:05 – How to contact Nathan

Announcer:                            00:02                       Welcome everyone to Two-Brain Radio! It is our mission at Two-Brain to provide 1 million entrepreneurs the freedom to live the life that they choose. Join us every week as we discover the very best practices to achieve perfect day and move you closer to wealth.

Announcer:                            00:26                       This episode is brought to you by Incite Tax. Incite tax is founded by John Briggs, a crossfitter, great big tall guy with a fantastic sense of humor and John is like a coach for your books. These guys are not just pencil pushing number crunchers. These guys will actually help you get towards your perfect day. If you’re a member of our Growth stage, part of the mentoring program, you’re familiar with John’s videos on 10-99 versus W2 contractors. See John used to work for the IRS. He’s seen the other side of labor law and he knows exactly where the line is drawn. Don’t believe everything you read, but on the tax side, John can actually help you plan to take home more money every year and save more money on taxes because John is a certified profit first accountant. If you’ve listened to this podcast before, you know that I’m a big fan of Mike Michalowicz’ Profit First system and John at Incite tax and his staff can help you plan backwards from profit to get to where you need to go. It’s helped members of the Two-Brain family buy houses in the first year that they’ve implemented profit first. It’s helped people save more money, take home more money and make the business do what it’s supposed to do, which is pay you.

Greg:                                          01:34                       All right. I’m here with Nathan Holiday on another episode of Two-Brain radio. Welcome to the show, Nathan.

Nate:                                          01:40                       Thanks for having me, man.

Greg:                                          01:41                       Happy to. So we’re going to get into Level Method. We’re going to dig into every, all the bits and pieces of what level method is, but before we do that, let’s kind of jump back a little bit. Let’s jump back to a little bit of your past and what kind of led you up to the point of building such an amazing product and service for gym owners. But what kind of led you up to that point?

Nate:                                          02:03                       Sure.

Nate:                                          02:03                       So I was in the army. I straight out of high school, went in for five years, learned a lot, definitely an awesome learning experience. And as soon as I got out of that, I started coaching. This was back in 2008 just at a gym in California, Monrovia under Eric LeClair at Team CrossFit academy and one of the early gyms in the world, like I think of the 10th or something like that. And I dove in headfirst into the, both the coaching and the athlete role. So I was like totally obsessed with training, obsessed with program design, sort of coming up the ranks. I think it was a lot of people do, you know, you get into fitness and then you kind of become a, a coach and then you get into coaching and then you move up. And so after a few years, uh, I ended up opening a gym in Lake Forest, which is in California too.

Nate:                                          02:52                       And this was 2012 so I spent like four years sort of coaching and then opening the gym. Went through this of natural evolution of ownership where you, you kind of think that it’s going to be a lot different than it is. I think all owners, gym owners realize, you know, like the idea of it is much different in life is like that in many ways. And so I spent sort of three or four years really struggling with problems that I didn’t, I hadn’t foreseen. I didn’t realize what the real job was. I didn’t, I was coaching and much on, uh, a much more sort of program oriented, training oriented. You know, I’m, I’m sort of technical by nature, so I love that. All the energy systems stuff. So I really lived in that world and I, it took me a long time to realize that a lot of, I mean, most people, normal people don’t really care about that.

Nate:                                          03:40                       So I had to figure out like, what is it that people care about and what is it that’s going to increase buy in and sort of this, how can I get more people to be on their path wanting to get better? And so I was, uh, I was, I was in this big location with like a ton of rent and I was sort of like at this turning point of figuring out if I wanted to keep going or what I wanted to do and my business partner Sean, he brought up this idea of a level system. And so that’s kind of where the original idea started from that point is really what I started working on this thing fully. But all the way up to that point was this sort of like learning time and trying to figure things out. And that’s sort of, that’s like in a nutshell, the history.

Greg:                                          04:25                       So you not only, I mean you were in the military, you get out and you start coaching. I mean, like you said, one of the, one of the first 10 I, you said the name and I haven’t heard that name in, I mean a few years now at least. So you, you were being able to coach under a, under a gym. From there you opened your own gym now to actually developing, I mean you thought very methodical, very systemized. What really led to you saying, okay, I need to develop something for other gym owners that is going to help them understand what they’re doing with their clientele and meeting the goals that they want to with their clientele.

Nate:                                          05:03                       That’s a, that’s a great question. It was not a, an original idea like that. It wasn’t it. The idea was never to do that. The idea was I wanted, I wanted a tool that would work that would help engage my clients. I help them sort of get on the path of fitness. I say this all the time because like when we look at like the beginners, when I came into fitness and like a lot of owners, especially in coaches, when they get introduced to this concept of fitness, it’s like we’re in like day one. We’re like, well, what do I have to do? How do I learn what I like? We were on the journals. We’re learning, we’re learning. It’s like consistent and I found that most people, like regular people, they’re not necessarily like that. They’re, you know, they’re so it, I was trying to figure out this way to get somebody to get like plugged into like understanding the world and wanting to get better.

Nate:                                          05:53                       And so it was this tool for me to solve that problem. And as I went, as it was developing and I was seeing that it was actually working because I mean levels in general, the idea of levels and a level system is not a new idea. It’s been around since like 2000 or back in the Seattle, the level four and all those sorts of things. And I had played with all, I’ve, I tried to implement all of those and none of them really stuck. Right? So I, I, I knew that if I could do the same way as like martial arts belts, if I could somehow quantify these things and give people concrete goals and be able to object to like make it objective that that would have, the likelihood would be high, that someone would be able to get plugged in. And so as I was going and I was working on this problem in my own gym, I saw that it was actually working and it was like I was so surprised and you know, cause you how many times do we have ideas where like this is a great idea but then it fails miserably, right?

Nate:                                          06:47                       Like this is like the story of an entrepreneur’s life. Like okay. So as it was working then, you know, I reached out and it was a very organic, the growth was extremely organic. I have being in the, in in southern California for so many years and like the sort of bed of of fitness in the early days, I have a lot of people that I know and so I reached out to a handful of gym owners. But where I started, Eric LeClair, one of the very first ones, he was actually the second gym, Jill Baker, who used to own a crossfit fly. She’s now moved on. But she was the very first and so I went there and we did like this really low key sort of integration where I just explained what this was. But at the time it was basically completely built around the training and this technical side of like this is, these are the energies that, and even when I went on, I went on Two-Brain the podcast last year, I was still really obsessed with that idea, like training, training and energy systems and all this sort of stuff.

Nate:                                          07:46                       So like the, the answer is that originally was just to solve the problems I had and as it, as it went, as I saw it working for me, I reached out and then it sort of started to grow. And then as we started seeing it working successfully, so it wasn’t like a star problem. It wasn’t like me as this, like I’m super obsessed with this idea and I’m like pushing it, pushing it, pushing it. When we saw it working in other communities with other gyms, we knew that it was, you know, it could be, it could be scaled. And so, and that’s really when we started looking at like, okay, well what are the, what are the real problems and what are we really trying to solve with this? It’s not necessarily just a this ranking system, but what does the ranking system allow us to do very well. Right? And that’s sort of like where the, the business has evolved and developed into over the past, over the past year and a half early.

Greg:                                          08:36                       And I mean, and if anyone doesn’t know level method, please make sure that you guys, uh, and we’ll share the, the, the in the show notes, the links and everything like that. Make sure you jump on so that when I ask this next question, you kind of understand what I mean. And you have some context, but basically with the level method, you guys, I mean there’s different levels, almost like a, a different colors for

Greg:                                          08:56                       each, each thing. And then there’s criteria for each one of those. And to me, I mean, in my childhood I took karate lessons. I think it was probably for maybe a month, don’t really remember how long I was interested in it. And I’m pretty sure it was very few sessions. But I remember have friends that were in it for long periods of time. And there was a method, uh, each belt was a different color until you got, of course the black belt and then they have like those third degree black belts and all this other stuff. But that’s like if I, if I break this down to a very simple level, I mean that’s kind of what level method has done, right?

Nate:                                          09:27                       It is exactly like that. So I did Jujitsu, Brazilian Jujitsu for a years. I mean I’m not like that great. So don’t think that I’m that good. But I love Brazilian Jujitsu and the belts, the colors are actually based off of that belt system and it’s like, in my mind, sort of calibrated in the same way what blue is like, it’s okay, purple now you’re getting pretty good and brown, you were very good. And it’s so it’s, it’s sort of in that same, but it’s exactly that, right? It’s exactly this, this quantification to help people move up. Right? And there are 15 categories in case somebody is just wondering, there are 15 categories and these, each of these categories progress independently. And so then you, what you end up with is like a chart of visual chart of like this visual representation of someone’s fitness and their weaknesses, which gives me as a coach a ton of information.

Nate:                                          10:18                       I mean from a training standpoint, but also from like a goal setting. A system’s a powerful moment to like really as people you know, get promoted. It’s like a huge celebration. And this is a just a side note, it’s like a very interesting idea is that like we’ve attached this color or we’ve attached this label to all of these different weights. So use front squat. Just as a quick example, you have like I front squat. If I went from to 62 to 75 like high five that’s great. But if it’s attached to a meet, like there’s actual a meaning a label and I’ve gone from whatever, I’m not looking at the map right now, but you say blue two blue one this now is a massive, it’s an opportunity for this really powerful experience versus I’ve gone up 15 pounds. Also a powerful experience. Also a PR but not as meaningful, right? We’ve created this language and this framework to make things more meaningful and to leverage this whole idea of powerful moments and rewarding and all this sort of stuff. Now

Greg:                                          11:20                       I’m going to ask a question and, and I know the answer, but I definitely want people to understand this too, is why do you want to hit on the power of those moments so much?

Nate:                                          11:31                       I mean, the, the quick answer is that like it does not happen in regular life, right? So like this idea, if we’re going to compete with so many distractions in life and so many things that are happening all the time, we want to be able to, to make people feel just really, really good about what they’re doing and what they’re accomplishing and what they’re doing in life. And so we are able to produce these really powerful moments. Not only is there like this addictive element, but it also makes people feel just really good about their accomplishments. And we also clarify what the things are that they need to be working on. So we can set up this game plan and then continue to produce these powerful moments.

Greg:                                          12:10                       Now with this, it’s, I mean, I, I 100% agree with you on having those moments. I think, I mean the book The Power of Moments by chip and Dan Heath, which is amazing. We’ll make sure we add that in the show notes as well. Is the fact that it’s necessary to keep these members long term, like you said, it doesn’t happen in day to day life. Uh, it’s, it’s allowing people to be recognized for their accomplishments. I mean, we do that to kids all the time, right? We take a picture when they graduate high school or college or they get a perfect score on a test and they have a certificate and the teacher recognizes them. We don’t, I mean, that ends after basically college, right? Maybe you get a promotion, but it’s not like you post that on Facebook with a certificate that says, Hey, I got a promotion today.

Nate:                                          12:52                       Exactly.

Nate:                                          12:52                       Yeah. And, and that book, The Power of Moments. Like, so as we were going, you know, we’re building level method and it’s, it’s growing and growing. Uh, and we, like I read this book, this is in the very early days and in chapter eight of that book is multiply milestones. And so multiplying milestones, we were creating milestones for people. Right? And if you just read that, if you’re not going to do anything else, but we that one chapter, chapter eight and powerful moment, oh, in the power of moments and just take that idea to what you’re doing in the gym. I mean that alone is super, you can do it in many, many ways. You can like people have PR bells, you have class attendance boards, you have all sorts of different ways of doing it. But the idea is that you should be doing it and once you should be doing it, the next step is to systemize. So it happens every single time regardless. And this is very important. Otherwise what are we doing? Right?

Greg:                                          13:45                       Yeah, exactly. I 100% agree with you. I think that’s too many to many. And not only gyms, but businesses in general, uh, don’t do this enough. And I think we need to think about that, of how often we got recognized when we were younger and how we don’t do that now. And how you could have that, that business that does recognize these people, that’s they’ve, they’ve been a member for the, for three years or five years. I mean, I have gym owners that have members that have been there for seven years and this is a crossfit gym. So this is somebody that’s been around for like 10 years. I mean, imagine having somebody, a client there for seven years and you haven’t recognized them at all and now you have the opportunity to do so, uh, in some way. So I agree with you, like you said, find a way to recognize them and then systemize it. And that’s, I mean, you guys have done an amazing job of doing that because it’s, it’s hard to say. How do you, I mean, how do you systemize people working out? And it’s hard to quantify that besides him in crossfit, we quantify the, the, if you’ve gotten fitter, but then how are you making sure that you track these kinds of things? And then recognize it.

Nate:                                          14:47                       It’s such a hard question, right? Like when you, when you look at fitness overall, it’s like you have a billion different things, right? Like am I better like you, you see relative to other people, a lot of it’s relative or it’s like you have, you know, a workout that you did last year and it’s like you’re a fitter, you’re definitely getting fitter. But by how much, and in the world of fitness, where am I? Right? So like, am I good? I, well, you’re not really going to know until you go compete or you are now going to the game. You know, like as you’re, as you’re climbing up, it’s like difficult to really find your place. And, and that’s like the thing that, one of the things I love most is like I can look at somebody levels, I can, once I know their overall level, it gives me this, just the immediate Snapshot in my brain of where they are in the world.

Nate:                                          15:37                       Right? So someone comes to my gym and they say, Oh yeah, I’ve been, I’ve been working out for five years. Okay. I mean, what does that mean? And that’s like, that could be, I’ve seen five year people still not be able to get below parallel, prolonged squatting or like any of these basic things versus someone that comes to me and says, I am this level right away in my head. I have an exact idea of where they are in this world. Right. So it’s just a very cool thing. I just love that part.

Greg:                                          16:05                       No, and, and that’s, that’s, now let’s start taking actually into that a little bit. You have these different levels. I think a white is the very basic and it goes up to black. Is that correct?

Nate:                                          16:14                       Yeah. So it’s like very beginner. I mean, Level method is beginner oriented. It, it doesn’t mean that it’s not for those higher levels, but yeah, white, it starts in white and it moves up to black.

Greg:                                          16:25                       And I, I remember at last year’s summit, it was the first time I actually saw your chart and everything laid out. And I remember, of course when I see this big chart of level method, I want to know where I rank. And I remember looking at it and the, I think too many people would say like, oh, this is good for beginners. Like I’m, I’ve done crossfit for five years or seven years or whatever it is. I should be, I should have no problem getting through this though. The ones that you have on, on that black like ranking system, those are, I mean those are ridiculous. I won’t lie. Like some of them are, I mean games level competitors that that would be able to rank on the scoring.

Nate:                                          17:03                       Yeah. And so like if everything’s based basically on percentiles, I don’t want to get too technical, but like we’re looking at about 90th percentile. So like the, the scores are definitely high but doable and each one, right. So there are a lot of people that will have many black individual black levels. So there’s 15 categories. So they might have like three or four things that are in the black, but we still have nobody that’s black, completely black overall because it’s, I mean, we have some brown twos, Brown three’s even, but nobody has had that has made that leap into overall black.

Greg:                                          17:37                       And I, I can believe it cause I remember seeing those numbers and I was like this person probably doesn’t exist unless it’s rich Froning and that’s probably the only person that could, maybe it would make all of these, the games. I would say that the majority of games guys these days would all be black. Yeah. Yeah.

Greg:                                          17:53                       But the really, and that’s what the, the thing I want to get to is like it is, it’s not easy to get to that point. So going through these, these systems, these color systems, I mean you, you really have to put the time and effort into it and continually do that to get better and better. But it gives them a visualization of where they are and then also giving them the things that they need to do to get to the next level from what I can see. So with that digging into a little bit of how that works, what exactly when gym owners are saying, okay, I’m going to implement level method, talk to me about how somebody, one of their members gets from one level to the next. Like what is, what is those that process look like?

Nate:                                          18:30                       So that that would, um, I mean we call it testing or assessing and that happens in a, in a variety of ways. So like we have initial rollout when someone, when someone gets the level method, there’s an initial like assessment phase where people are doing their testing and they’re doing, their tests are getting their levels up and then they will get their overall level. And in the first, if you have a really like veteran sort of population, then you know, people are going to be into the blues, into the purples. And just to give everyone an idea of blue and purple is really like the goal. Blue I would say is the goal for the vast majority of, of regular, you know, gym goers is like I’m trying to get the blue and as people are, if they’re brand new then we kind of hold them back a little bit and keep it nice and like, so they’re not trying to crush themselves.

Nate:                                          19:19                       We get their overall level. And then from that point we’re working on game plans, we’re working on working on weaknesses. There’s like specialty programs or accessory programs like in a goal setting situation, what we sit down and we kind of map it out and then every quarter or so we’ll have cycles where we’ll do another sort of testing where it’s layered into the programming so people can come in and they can do it if they haven’t done it for awhile and we also have some times on Saturdays or Fridays or something, people will come in and they’ll want to test stuff. They’ll be like, I’ve been, I mean I can’t tell you the why this. The level method is really for this white, yellow, orange, blue, that group of people, because I have, I have normal members, I have a a client, a Janice, she’s still with me.

Nate:                                          20:06                       She’s, she was with me for probably three years before I had the level method and she was one of those clients that just was not engaged like her. Her daughter did a taekwondo like in the place down the road and so she was looking for something to like take up the hour. She starts coming. She’s just kind of checking the box and doing all of these things. We, I introduced the level method and then immediately she’s like, she goes through her tests and then now she’s coming before class to work on her rings and she’s like doing jump to stabilize and she’s been, she’s working in working in like until she gets her blue overall it’s a big celebration. Right. And it’s like this is a, this is an example of who previously there was no engagement and now suddenly she’s on there, she sees she’s working towards a very specific goal and then achieving that goal and being able to celebrate it with everybody.

Nate:                                          20:58                       And the thing that got her to her goal was, I think it was like either one or three ring dips. So she was like highly incentivized to work on this one to three ring dip thing where in any other environment there is not a, there’s no reason unless she was about to do like a competition that had ring dips and it was like crunch time and she had like three weeks to get a ring dip or she was going to be embarrassed in front of, you know, like that sort of thing. It’s the only other time that somebody would be highly incentivized to work on a, on a weakness and sorry I kind of went off there, but to go back to the testing, you know there’s, there’s a lot of ways that people work towards moving up or getting their levels, you know, doing accessory programs or you know, in the normal cycle of the year just coming in and everybody gets fitter.

Nate:                                          21:47                       Right? It’s like if they’re working out and they’re doing good stuff, they’re going to get fitter is this is just a matter of fact until they reach to a certain point and then start things start to plateau a little bit. And at that point we have to now take like specific action, right? So now we’re looking at weaknesses specifically and we’re, we’re mapping out a game plan specifically but up to a certain point we can just kind of, people are just going to be getting better and better. And that’s, I mean that’s the goal, right? I mean I always, and if anybody’s listening to this, I’ll make sure that I, I bridged this of why, uh, level Method such an amazing service for you to institute and products for your institute is what you said earlier is, is engagement. And on top of that, if you’re sitting down and going through with your clients, you’re doing no sweat. Intro is finding out what their goals are, finding out why they’re here and they fit everything within what your, gym can offer them. This, I feel like is a perfect bridge to keep them motivated and going and to get to those goals. I mean you were the, the whole theory of having a smart goal of, I mean specific and measurable and, and all of these things, you are literally doing this by showing them on this big poster that goes up on their wall when they start level method of you’re here, you need to get to here and these are the things that you need to do to get there and you’re building a roadmap for their goals. Yeah. And it’s like to take a quick little side track. So I was, this is early days level method now. Very fog. We have like probably, I don’t know, four or five gyms.

Nate:                                          23:14                       I’m not even sure. I don’t remember. But Josh Price. So he, you know, Josh training the trainers and so he’s like Two-Brain, he calls me up and he’s just like asking me about this thing, this, this must have been actually before we had any gyms. This was very early. He saw it somewhere, saw it on a forum and started calling me and asking me, hey, can we do this? So eventually I go to his place in Virginia and he introduces me to, Two-Brain the concept. I didn’t, I didn’t know about, I, I didn’t even like, and so I enter into his world. He introduces me to Chris and then I’m on Chris’s podcast about six months later, but it was like, at the time I didn’t even know like the, um, I was thinking totally about this technical side, not about systems and the prescriptive model and all of these really core ideas from a business standpoint that I was totally missing out on.

Nate:                                          24:11                       And so, so once I got exposed, I went through the incubator, I get it, I get all of these ideas and I’m like, Oh damn, we’re missing out here. We got to like set up some systems to be able to sit down with people to be able to show them. Exactly. It just, it magnifies everything. And just recently, probably maybe three, two or three months ago, we were in Sweden and at coaches Congress and Chris was there presenting and he, he uses two tools for quantification. The tools are the inbody, right? Because you need to be able to quantify body fat and the best way to to manipulate that variable is mostly through nutrition, right? So you have nutrition coaching attached to this inbody and then you, he uses the level method because of this is the modulator. This is the thing that controls the the goal setting.

Nate:                                          24:57                       I can sit down and I can get people on either one on ones or a a specialty program like an excursion or an accessory program and I can do all of these things in a much less like sort of weird way. Like people are coming to me to ask them how they can get better, right? So when I sit down on it in a goal setting session, I can like pull up inbody, hey here are all, here’s all of these numbers and I can pull up someone’s fitness and I have up, here’s all these numbers, let’s map out a perfect plan for you. These are the options. You can do the more expensive stuff, right? Like ten one on one sessions. We could do a six week specialty program if that’s too much or if that’s too much, we could do an accessory program and so on down the line we can even do free options, right?

Nate:                                          25:43                       Where we’re just like, hey, come in before class and do these things. So it’s, it’s just the, the, the, the model. Before I was really introduced these core ideas, I was going down these, this wrong zone. I was, I was running down the wrong path thinking that this is what people were interested in as opposed to how do we get people to stay longer? How do we get them to be more engaged into their process? How do we make sure that, uh, the gym owner isn’t overwhelmed with systemizing these things? How do we show differentiation? Like, because I mean from all the other gyms, how do we make ourselves different and how do we make ourselves a better, you know, so all of these ideas sort of have, have evolved

Greg:                                          26:25                       and I mean, and they’ve evolved in an amazing direction. I mean exactly what you said with what Chris mentioned at that the coaches congress, if, if you are, I mean the two things that you can use to get to your client’s goals are going to be nutrition and he’s right, 100% something like level method that can show your clients where they’re at and then where they’re trying to go, which is in the direction of their goals. Because I think you could use level method by itself and it would be great. You could use nutrition by itself and it would be great, but I feel like when you pair the two up together, like HSN putting HSN and level method together, it’s, it’s basically a home run. I mean you, you do less work, you build out, you were literally had the systems systemized so that you can build it, hey, you’re going to do this, then this, then this, then this and this gets to your goal.

Greg:                                          27:13                       So it makes a gym owner not have to work as hard. But the other part of that is what you said, like they can now schedule goal review sessions to get to their next goal. And they’re in, they’re, they’re enthusiastic about it and they want to in there they’re keeping motivated with it cause you’re showing them success. And then on top of that, and now you’re also bringing new revenue in the gym because they want to get to this goal. One of their things may be, and I’m just using this as as a placeholder, I’m not saying that this is in the method a level method, but they want to get double unders. Now you have a way of showing them like, hey did you get to your next ranking? You’d have to get double unders. Now we have a way of doing that or x amount of double unders. So it brings more revenue into, you, brings more revenue to your coaches and allows for the gym to sustain growth and sustain moving in the direction that the gym chooses. So it sounds like, I mean if you’re running both these programs, your coaches are making more money. The gym’s making more money, which is what gym owners of course they’re looking for. But then on top of that, it’s also keeping your clients longer and you’re retaining them. The, the length of engagement is there, which is amazing to me.

Nate:                                          28:15                       Yeah, it really is. It’s one of those. So sort of piggy backing off of that idea, there are several tests in the map or on the map on in level method that are like relative strength tests. So they’re, they’re percentage based, they’re like body weight based. So there’s objective tests that are like their objective way do you got to pick up this amount of weight? And then there’s like pull up these other ones, ring dips there that have percentages. And so when somebody, when I, when we look at some of these levels, their dashboards, I get aggregate scores of will bear, I don’t want to get to relative and objective strength levels, right? So if their relative strength is low, most likely, like 90% of the time it’s because they’re carrying too much, what we call nonfunctional master, just they have too much fat. Right? So as soon as we start to drop that fat immediately, some of these relative strength numbers go up. So it’s like we further incentivize them working on nutrition and working on those things because not only are they going to look better, feel better, but now also their levels are going to go up. So it’s just like, there’s a lot of cool little things like that.

Greg:                                          29:21                       It’s a, it sounds like it’s, I mean it’s a, it’s a perfect marriage between not only nutrition and the program, but then when the gym basically, which is facilitating both of these things, it’s doing what, what all gyms sell, which is an experience. So it sounds like it’s, it’s, it’s doing that perfectly. So now with that, I mean, I know you guys have some other stuff in the pipeline or have already it from my understanding, from what I’ve seen is you actually, you guys have an APP that people would have their own profile through. Is that correct?

Nate:                                          29:47                       Yeah. So the, the APP and we’re like always in development, right? Always. So sort of improving. But this APP is a way to, for someone to see this visual snapshot of their fitness. So I get also to these technical, I live near Irvine, California. It’s like sort of a UN for engineery sort of people. We have software engineers and also so we get these highly technical kind of people. They’re all over the place, right? But the end, they’ll come in and they’ll just be obsessing about their levels. So have their charts and their things and everybody has a little snapshot, a little visual screen of their levels. And the coach also has access to everybody’s levels so they can pull up and easily see everybody. And it’s just a way to track overall track where people are.

Greg:                                          30:28                       And that’s, I mean, and that’s what we talked about earlier to what you said was being able to track those numbers, having hard numbers of objective measurements, which is what crossfit has always been about. How do we objectives, we measure our fitness level. Cause nobody else was willing to defy it. And we were, which is awesome. And I love when Greg and Greg Glassman talked about that. I mean he’s, I’m sure he’s talked about it and many, many videos, but I always remember seeing that when I would pull up youtube and start watching videos is we were the ones that were willing to measure it. So let’s talk about what’s kind of, what’s in the pipeline, what’s going forward. I mean, like you said, you’re always innovating, which is awesome. If you’re always trying to make systems better, that’s the goal, to give that experience to be better. What’s, what’s the next things going on with level method that, uh, that you guys are going to be doing?

Nate:                                          31:12                       I mean, I think like the biggest thing, the biggest, like what I consider the biggest revolution within, within what we do is this levels based programming. This is like a fairly new project, maybe six or eight months. And so this is programming based on people’s levels so that we create these very extensive coaching notes and digital displays that go on TVS, right? So it’s just basically like a slide that goes up and then there are levels for each of the war. The workout is broken down into five either white, yellow, orange, blue, and then purple plus. So the same workout now is broken down and it’s pre scaled. And this like originally, you know we, I never really, I didn’t get in the to doing this stuff to do programming like it. It’s an extremely extensive, I spend a ton of time on this stuff but the truth is it really does systemize and make things really easy for the gym owner.

Nate:                                          32:10                       So as we’ve been going, my whole focus and with with everything in level method really is to make things as easy as possible for the gym owner. So like how do we make it so simple that all you have to do is put up a thing on your screen and then everything’s pre scaled. You can hand your coaching notes to somebody to a a new way kind of coach and they can read the coaching notes, get all the briefing, get all the stuff and then they can coach a really high quality class. So we were like sort of systemizing that side of it. Obviously it’s, it’s, we’re continuing to refine, continuing to make it better. But that idea is, I’m just, I love that idea is that we can, cause, I mean, think about from a, from a gym owner, one of the most dangerous, sort of precarious elements of what we do with, I mean in any business is the people, right?

Nate:                                          33:00                       So when we have coaches, we have coaches in, in our midst and they move or they have, and now suddenly your, it’s like you, you’re covering everything and now you have to do all the work and you’re not prepared for that. And then now we have to train somebody up and you have to get them going. So if we can figure out a way to make, to make that whole thing better, more seamless, I just had a coach that’s coming up the ranks, you know, that in, in past years, like I would feel nervous, you know, but because I have these coaching notes and I can review them with her and I can go over and she can read everything. It’s like, man, it solves so many, so many problems. And I think that’s, that’s one of the big, the big sort of revolutionary ideas that we’re doing a further development in the APP obviously. And then we have a ton of ideas around like more systems stuff. How do we make this more, so the goal setting is better at dialed in, you know, all of those things are, are better dialed in.

Greg:                                          33:51                       Okay. So and I think I’ve heard, I’ve actually heard from this from one of my clients, uh, that uses level method. You guys, so anybody out there listening, cause it’s definitely a question that popped in my head and hopefully, um, I’m asking it now when everyone else is like, oh I wish you would ask this is you have developed programming for this level method because I think too many gyms out there are probably going well I would love to have that. Like it sounds amazing, but my programming, I would, that would be so much more work to do, to have my programming be within these levels. So you guys actually created your own, your own programming for level methods so that people could do this.

Nate:                                          34:28                       No. So that’s a very common misconception. The programming, like it’s, it’s broadened inclusive fitness programming. Like it’s all we’ve done is we’ve just basically prescale did for every level. So it’s not like we’re not training for the level of methods specifically. We’re not like, okay, we’re going to do the programming, we’re going to like plug it in and you’re going to get all of your members really good at the level method. It’s very, very broad and inclusive and it’s not even a mandatory part. So if anybody’s listening, thinking about like if you do love method, you have to do the programming. It’s optional. You like, we just did it because the demand was high. People just wanted us to be able to do everything for them. But yeah, it’s, it’s a, a broad and inclusive fitness program. Not Specific to Level method. We just have like layered in similar, sometimes the movements, you know, there’s Kettlebell swings it at the same, I mean it’s just fitness.

Greg:                                          35:19                       Exactly. And, but what you guys have done is, like I said, showing those to the members and allow them to bridge that gap to their goals of what they’re trying to achieve. But you guys have done it in for the gym owner side of it allowed them to take away from that programming so that they, if they are doing, and if you’re, if you’re a gym owner out there for your gym, please reach out and try to outsource that because you’re wasting time on that when you’re could be bettering the experience and this is the perfect time or perfect opportunity to do something like that. If they’re jumping on a level method style service, you could, they would have the program and which is, which I think is amazing. I mean they don’t have to, you don’t, nobody has to waste the time on, on developing programming when they could just institute that through through you guys’s, I think it’s additional service. Correct?

Nate:                                          36:04                       Yeah, exactly. It’s just an add on if you, if you so desire. But that’s a huge, that’s a very important point is this, I mean the amount of time that we spend on refining this programming and doing it and thinking it through, it’s like so many, so many hours when we used to do every gym, right? So like there’s a, there’s thousands of gyms. Each person is putting these 10 or 20 or 30 hours into this program where they could, they can outsource it and saves so much time, you know? But again, if people use other services they can, they can maintain that. And then level method is sort of this like framework plug and play framework that lays on top

Greg:                                          36:41                       that makes complete sense to be able to do that and keep them moving forward. But like I said, if, if people are out there programming, I always tell anybody that I mentor, like try to look into outsourcing it because it’s not what is keeping your gym around. Nobody’s, nobody’s googling in your area. Best programming in my area, they don’t care. They don’t give them a great experience and they will tell all of their friends.

Nate:                                          37:04                       Yeah. It’s funny you say that because for before I had, you know, create a level method I like I have, I am of that mind. I’m that sort of guide. It’s like I want to do the best training. And so for like two years we had, as our tag, I cringe to think about it now, but our tagline was we train smarter that Wa and like, dude, not one person ever came. It’d be like, Hey, I saw your thing about you training smarter. Like, no, no. It has nothing to do with that. It’s, it’s all about how you make people feel, you know? It’s like when you come to a gym and you feel really good and you’re feeling these powerful experiences and you’re making friends and your, that’s really what the whole thing is about. And it’s like if, if someone’s not focusing on those things, you’re missing out. Yeah,

Greg:                                          37:51                       agreed. Agreed. 100% so now I’ve got to ask, I mean I didn’t ask this question in the beginning and we talked about it. Do you still own a gym?

Nate:                                          37:59                       I do. Yeah. I have my gym. So when I, I moved to a smaller location and as I was developing the level method, like there are so many things that I test and I go through with my people first. All of the programming is tested through my location. Everything. It, like, all of the ideas are sort of vetted through my, through my gym. And I look at it like a, a test kitchen. But I also love, I love what I do and I have a great team of people that are smart, hardworking, dedicated, and it’s like, there’s, there’s so many little things to be working on it. Like as an entrepreneur, a business owner as like a human being, there’s always so many tweaks and refinements, you know? And with my gym, it’s that, it’s like this very, very fun project that continues to refine and it’s like, I will, I’ll need to keep it, you know?

Greg:                                          38:49                       Yeah, no. And, and, and to me it also builds up that authenticity and authority of like, Hey, it’s not like you’re just creating this programming and saying hey, it’s great or, or level method as a whole and hey yeah it works but not being able to to test it and you guys are testing it. I mean you are going through it these steps in making sure that when it gets to the end user, which would be a gym owner, it’s working correctly and then their members, if they’re doing the programming with that, I mean you’re running a gym, you’re building this organization and I mean and and I don’t even know what, what amount of staff you have for both, both now, but what is it like being the CEO of both of these? Like what, what does that entail? What is, what is the processes? Is there, is there anything out there that if people are, they have a gym at super successful theirs, they’re starting this new opportunity, what do you feel like has been successful for you to be able to juggle both?

Nate:                                          39:39                       I think the, the number one thing is to think in systems, right? To think in ways to lower the amount of stuff that’s going on when it comes to like just a very pragmatic things like living by a calendar, right? So making sure that you have time blocked out to work on big projects things. And then working to a timer. This is also very important. So when you have a project and you’re working on a project that you, you set a timer and you work on it, you’re not getting distracted by a billion things. And these are, this is sort of my obsession is how do I get more done? How do I live a more like stress free life? Because as a gym owner, if you own multiple businesses, it’s like your brain does not shut off, right? And so it’s this ongoing thing and you know, sometimes you’ll wake up and you’ll, you’ll like be thinking about some meaningless detail in the middle of the night and it feels like the worst thing.

Nate:                                          40:35                       And then in the daytime you’re like, why was I so, it’s just like getting these systems. So I think the number one thing for me is to be thinking about systems as a priority and within that world, being able to delegate, create teams, make sure that you get good people and you work with them so that they can, you know, you give them encouragement so that they can come up and they can start to understand things. Um, and then if, if somebody, if you haven’t looked into VA’s virtual assistants to work on little things like the little mundane tasks that you find yourself constantly doing, that would be easily like given to somebody if they just knew the steps that needed to be done. Like the, the raw steps, what’s step one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 if I could and then map that out and hand it off to somebody think like that. And that’s the, that’s like my, my best advice. No,

Greg:                                          41:25                       I think, uh, honestly, I mean I always, I never, never say that I know everything that has never my goal of the intentive of any of these episodes or anything.

Nate:                                          41:34                       I always try to ask questions that I know that I have personally or what I think somebody else would. But I also take away stuff from every single one of these episodes and that whole timer thing. I, I’ve heard it so many times and I don’t think I’ve actually instituted, so I want you to know and you can hold me accountable. I, uh, I need to go get a timer. You something that I can use, probably I’ll probably get something that I can keep on my desk that kind of looks nice too. But I’m gonna start doing that. I’m gonna start up putting a timer on that work so that I actually stay focused in on it. I’m not also looking at my phone or my iPad or whatever while I’m doing it. Think about fitness, right? So like what, what increases fitness like, and you go back, there are many arguments to this, like many sides to the argument, right?

Nate:                                          42:14                       There’s no, but intensity in general is really like hormonally, you don’t want to do it all the time, but when you put things to a timer, you’re going to work faster. You know, and when you, when you slot things in and if you’re interested in really going down in anybody listening, there are, there are two frameworks. I’m just going to give them broadly because they’re are very, they’re kind of, they’re deep. You can go down these worlds, one of them, the framework of general overall organization of your entire life of ways of thinking. It’s called Gtd. It’s called getting things done by a guy named David Alvin. This book and this way of thinking will absolutely change your entire life as, as how you bring things into your life. So when someone randomly is like, Hey, can you do this thing? And you’re like, yeah, sure.

Nate:                                          42:59                       And then you forget five minutes later, that will never happen again. If you can actually implement a GTD system, that’s number one. That’s the framework. The second framework, and this comes down to time to work, is pomodoros. Pomodoros is a, it’s Italian for tomato and it’s a, it’s a system of using a timer and going through blocks of work followed by rest 25 minutes of work followed by five minutes of rest. You do that four times and you’d get along rest of 30 minutes. And this is just an oscillation of work to rest in your arrest. You must rest. You can’t go on. You got to go and look at plants and like go outside and look completely disconnect. And this oscillation of doing deep work followed by little periods of rest is the, and it took me, it took me about two years to really see the benefit of the rest.

Nate:                                          43:51                       I would, the beginner doesn’t rest. And at the same thing happens in fitness. The beginner and intermediate person does not like to rest. Even the events or advanced people that do not like to rest because what do they think? I’m wasting my time. I don’t need a rest. I need another day of training, right? But when it comes and it’s the same thing and work, the beginner person who was getting into really deep focused work wants to burn through the whole day. And what ends up happening is they burn themselves out and then they’re low productive for like weeks. And then they come back and then they do it again. Right? So you have to get this idea of working deep work followed by little bits of rest and now you can do this. All you could do, you could go all day long, these little mini breaks you get, you know, eight, 10 hours of solid chunks of work and it’s sustainable.

Nate:                                          44:36                       That’s a secret, right? So you have these two ideas. GTD and Pomodoro. So anybody, the reason I know this stuff is because I needed, I needed it very, very badly because it was, I was continuously overwhelmed like how am I going to get, I felt to the maximum stretch to the maximum and I knew I wanted to do more, but how was I going to do it? You need systems, you need systems in place and it has to do with life and also business and the the number one system in my life, the one, the two things that I do that I am so thankful for his Gtd, which is a just a way of thinking about things and then Pomodoro, which is a very pragmatic timer based productivity way of getting things done. Like actually getting things done right. Distraction free, phone off, nothing. All you’re doing is working and that’s it. And you get so much done and it’s like you’re like, can’t believe what you can get done in 30 minutes. Yeah,

Greg:                                          45:32                       I think that’s, that’s a perfect place to wrap this episode up because I think anyone that’s listening and it’s like, okay, I need to go download those books, which we’re going to put in the show notes. We’ll definitely make sure, uh, that getting things done is definitely in there as well as the power of moments and people can start utilizing that. But Nathan, if somebody is trying to figure out, hey, you know what, I listen to podcast, I want to get Leffel method, I need to get this done right away. Cause I feel like there’s a lot of people out there that, that need this. And, and, and should be utilizing this along with, of course nutrition. Where should they reach out to a,

Nate:                                          46:04                       to get ahold of you? So number one thing is to schedule a call. So we call it our discovery session or discovery call. We are doing a a um, a special, so it’s 20% off of the, the initial fee up until May 15th. So if you go to level method.com and then schedule your discovery, Brian who Brian Bender who does our uh, sales stuff, we’ll chat with you and then he’ll let you know say that you, you’re, you heard on the podcast and you’ll get 20% off.

Greg:                                          46:31                       Awesome. Awesome. Well Nathan, we’ll make sure we put that in the show notes too so people can book that discovery call. Thank you so much for being able to jump on here. Not only sharing your background, starting level method, but then also making sure that entrepreneurs and business owners are becoming more productive. Thank you for the time. Thank you for being able to jump on here. Thanks for, I appreciate it man.

Announcer:                            46:50                       Everyone. Chris Cooper here on really thrilled to see you this year in June in Chicago at the 2019 two brains summit. Every year we have two separate speaking tracks is one for you, the business owner and there’s one for coaches that will help them make better, longer, more meaningful careers under the umbrella of your business. This year we’ve got some pretty amazing topics like the client success manager, how to change your life organizational culture or the business owner’s life cycle, how to have breaks, how to have vacations, how to help your marriage survive. Owning a business and motivation and leadership. How to convert more clients, how to create a GM position that runs your gym for you and leaves you free to grow your business. How to start a business owner’s group in your community and more point here is to do the right thing that will help gym owners create better businesses that will last them for the long term.

Announcer:                            47:41                       Get them to tinker phase, help them be more successful, create meaningful careers that their coaches and give their clients a meaningful path to longterm health. We only do one big seminar every year and that’s the two brain summit and the reason that we do that is because a big part of the benefit is getting the two brain community together and and welcoming strangers into our midst and showing them how amazing Jim ownership really can be. We’ll have a link to the two brain summit, including a full list of all speakers and topics on both the owners and the coaches side in the show notes. I really hope to see you there.

Speaker 5:                               48:18                       As always, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. We greatly appreciate you and everyone that has subscribed to us. If you haven’t done that, please make sure you do drop a light to that episode. Share with a friend, and if you haven’t already, please write us a review and rate us on how what you think. If you hated it, let us know if you loved it, even better. See you guys later.


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What’s Wrong With Your Website

What’s Wrong With Your Website

How many people who visited your site last month booked an NSI?

Most gym owners have no idea.

But if I asked 500 gym owners, “Who has a great website?” almost all of them would put up their hands. Here’s why most of them are wrong.

Your website should not be judged on its art.

The purpose of a website is to convert your lead traffic to in-person consultations.

Your website’s purpose is NOT to showcase your creativity. It’s not to list your options or tell your prices or share your schedule or brag about your equipment. It’s not even to show your coaches’ bios. Prospects don’t care about any of that stuff, even though you do. People care about themselves. Your website should tell them how you’re going to solve their problem.

Think of your website as a boat in the middle of the ocean. You bring fish to the boat using paid ads, word-of-mouth, Affinity marketing, and all of your other attraction media. Then the boat brings the fish to dock. Then you eat.

Any messaging, pictures or videos on your website that don’t serve that purpose? They’re extra weight. Sometimes they sink the boat.

Your site should give just enough information to lead a client to book a No-Sweat Intro. That includes a few testimonials, and a description of how you’ll solve their problem. That’s it.

In fact, our head of marketing, John Franklin, argues that most gym websites shouldn’t even list their programs. Listing “CrossFit, BootCamp, CrossFit Lite, SweatRx…” and other options actually stops a prospective client from clicking through, because the site is asking them to figure out what they need before they decide. That’s backward. A client should ask her coach what to do.

Clients aren’t interested in your “playground”. No one’s googling “best gym community in Middleton”. Cut your website back to the bare bones; say less; tell them how you’ll solve their specific problem. THEN forge elite fitness with constantly varied functional programming in a supportive community that feels like a sport.

Good websites are more science than art. If you’re not tracking data from your site, how can you know if it’s good?

TwoBrain Marketing Episode 6: Oskar Johed

TwoBrain Marketing Episode 6: Oskar Johed

 Two Brain Marketing Episode 6: Oskar Johed


Today we are joined by Oskar Johed of CrossFit Medis. While growing up in Sweden, Oskar was very involved in sports and soon after graduating from college, entered the corporate world. It wasn’t until tearing his ACL that he came in contact with CrossFit and was instantly hooked! While recovering from his injury, the CrossFit Journal was all he had access to for killing time and keeping him going. It was soon after that he decided to quit his job as a banker and open his own CrossFit Gym. Today Oksar splits his time between his gym and traveling the work as a member of the CrossFit HQ Seminar Staff. 


Today we dive into a range of topics including how Oskar spent around $15,000 last year which generated over $200,000 dollars in front end sales!  


Don’t Forget about the 2019 Two Brain Summit, June 8-9 in Chicago! This year we have some amazing topics and guests for both yourself and your coaches. Click hereto register and sign up now!


Contact Oskar:







1:32 – Introduction to Oskar Johed 

4:21 – Changes in Oskar’s Gym before and after Two Brain Mentorship

8:44 – What originally prompted Oskar to sign up for mentorship

12:13 – The immediate changes as a result of the Two Brain Mentorship Program

14:22 – Holding a commitment with your Client and Staff

18:22 – How to retain Quality Control with your coaches

20:21 – Spending $15,000 on ads in one year!

23:49 – How to ensure successful conversion of leads

27:52 – The Key to Success for Oskar’s Gym


Announcer:                            00:02                       Welcome everyone to Two-Brain radio. It is our mission at Two-Brain to provide 1 million entrepreneurs the freedom to live the life that they choose. Join us every week as we discovered the very best practices to achieve perfect day and move you closer to wealth.

Chris:                                         00:26                       One of my favorite finds has been ForeverFierce.com. I linked up with Matt several months ago at Forever Fierce and he had some fantastic ideas and so he and I have put together a couple of packages that we think are really gonna help crossfit affiliates everywhere. Two-Brain mentoring clients use Matt almost exclusively. He’s got fantastic designs and he takes all the work out of it. All that time that you spend searching the internet and Pinterest and junk like that for great crossfit tee shirts. You don’t have to do that anymore. Matt has fixed that for you. You can put your logo on one of his templates which are fantastic and your clients will never know the difference. It saves you so much time that you could be using on other things like real marketing. He’ll also go so far as to remind you when it’s time to reorder. He’ll give you suggested order sizes, he’ll help you set up preorders so you’re not even fronting the cash from the inventory. It’s all amazing stuff built to help affiliates and that’s why I love this guy and this company ForeverFierce.com they do all of catalyst’s, shirts, all the Two-Brain shirts, all the ignite gym shirts. They do everything for every business that I own.

Mateo:                                      01:32                       Hello and welcome to the Two-Brain marketing podcast. I’m your host Mateo Lopez and I am one of the digital marketing mentors at Two-Brain business. Thanks for joining us. This is going to be your weekly dose of digital marketing magic and every week we’ll go over marketing campaign strategies, useful tips and updates just to keep you in the loop on the ever changing landscape of advertising on the Internet for Your Business. And today’s episode we have a very special guest. We have Oskar Johed from CrossFit Medis and yeah, I’m really excited because we’re going to learn all about him, his gym. And what’s most exciting I think is that last year he spent around $15,000 us in advertising spend and he was able to generate from those paid ads, $200,000 in front end sales. So that’s a, that’s a big return. It’s not totally typical, but I do want to learn because it is pretty special.

Mateo:                                      02:25                       I do want to learn the magic behind Oscar’s operations. So how are you?

Oskar:                                        02:30                       I’m really good. How are you buddy?

Mateo:                                      02:32                       Good, good. So for those tuning in, I mean, you know, you’re, you’re a Two-Brain mentor so people may not know a little bit about you and in your story, I know you’ve had some guest blog posts and things like that, but for those who don’t, you know, who are you, where are you from? And tell us a little bit about your business.

Oskar:                                        02:52                       This is going to be the Twitter version of yeah, the Twitter version two–whatever. Me and my business partner Karl, who is also a mentor here in Two-Brain. We opened the gym about five years ago. We both had corporate jobs in the past. He was in sales, I was a banker. I used to help multinational corporations handle their liquidity and I also worked in for an exchange. And so about five years ago for different reasons, we quit that and decided to open a gym in Stockholm. So that’s where we are. Uh, we have been mentors for Two-Brain for north of a year. I just think we’ve been in Two-Brain as clients for more than two years I think.

Mateo:                                      03:35                       And you’re on the, you’re on the seminar staff, right?

Oskar:                                        03:38                       Correct, yes. So, uh, I did, the gym runs itself pretty much. So I balanced my time trying to keep up with my seven year old daughter. I have the opportunity to travel around the world on the weekends to give people the level one, the current, you know, the, the, the material on the level one and teach people to squat. And I also can teach and hopefully inspire gym owners around the world to become better at running their business. So I like helping people both in coaching and also in, running the gym efficiently.

Mateo:                                      04:13                       That’s awesome. And so how long did you say, how long have you been open?

Oskar:                                        04:17                       Five years.

Mateo:                                      04:19                       And what was your, you know, how has your business changed and what was the business like prior to Two-Brain and mentorship and how has it changed since implementing what you’ve learned? Through the incubator?

Oskar:                                        04:31                       We started the gym as a business, so we both had that going into it. We had, you know, we had pretty decent paying jobs. We had families when we started, so we had to make money from the start. So what do you mean started it as a business? You mean some people started as a hobby? Is that what you’re saying?

Mateo:                                      04:50                       Ah, I’ve heard so I’ve heard people do that, right?

Oskar:                                        04:53                       Oh, okay. We had a five year plan and we had, you know, we had uh, you know, we had a budget, we had, you know, cashflow per good projections. We had a rudimentary, you know, business plan. However, we were kind of contrarion cause we’ve left that part of the world. We, wanted to get rid of structure and, and you know, corporate, you know, or you know, more meetings, right? And now it kind of comes back. Turns out, when we have a gym, we need that stuff. So, uh, it all comes back and, and uh, you know, we need this stuff in place. But that’s where we started it. And we had an understanding of what we were born to do, crossfit for regular people, so to say, we had no intention at all to run it for for athletes. We’ve had from the start a shirt on policy. In the gym where we started, it’s only shirts on policy.

Mateo:                                      05:42                       Right, right. Wow.

Oskar:                                        05:43                       Hey, here’s the thing. When we started there were like 15 gyms in Stockholm, so we said, if you don’t really care then we are one of 15. But if you really care about not wanting to join a gym where people take their shirts off, we’re the only one. So to play to the answer, you know, we used that to increase our odds.

Mateo:                                      06:00                       So that was your first strategic advantage maybe, right?

Oskar:                                        06:05                       Yes. Yeah. And the places we rented had like nine foot ceilings. So we couldn’t do rx wall balls for instance, and we didn’t really know that when we moved in. But two stories above us is the Red Cross sent, therefore tortured refugees. So we can’t really drop any barbells.

Mateo:                                      06:23                       Right. A lot of clanging and banging is probably not good for, for recovery from post traumatic stress. Okay. Well tell, tell people about the layout of your gym because it is unique. You do have a different kind of like, yeah.

Oskar:                                        06:35                       So, so we’re, we’re at the bottom of a, an office building with nine stories above us. And if we drop barbell they hear it all the way up to the ninth storey, we’ve actually tested it. It’s true. So we were there for three years. We had pretty cheap rent even though we’re center of Stockholm. But then three years in, the, the landlord said, we’re going to raise your rent by 94% so we said, okay, that’s, that’s, that’s a lot more than we can really pay. And we were at Max capacity, around like a hundred and 75 members. We ran classes, you know, five, six, eleven, noon, four thirty, five thirty, six thirty, seven thirty. Pretty much we worked at maximum capacity, it’s about, well we have about 1400 squares metres of work out area so you can fit 12 people in safely. That’s about it. But inside the office building, there’s a smaller, you know, basketball court. So we eventually, after a year of negotiating with the landlord, we got got this place as well. So we have two rooms in the same building, they’re joint with a small corridor a hundred feet apart or something. So we run classes concurrently. That place that’s kind of the same size. It’s obviously a higher ceilings, but it’s, it’s, you know, 1400 hundred square feet for workout area there as well.

Mateo:                                      07:47                       You also have the recovery room, right?

Oskar:                                        07:50                       Right. Yes. So we have, you know, it’s small. We have obviously saunas as well. Because that kind of came, would you know when we bought, they were, when we rented the, the basket ball area gym, which is nice to have. We have to pay rent for it. So, so of the of the area we pay rent for it. We can only use about 46% of it to actually work out at, cause then we have storage and stuff like that. So it’s not an optimal place to run a gym at especially. And we can’t drop weights. And I rent this about four. It’s, we pay north of 11,000 a month and that gets us two rooms of about 1400 square feet of workout area.

Mateo:                                      08:30                       Wow. So for those who didn’t catch that, he says 11,000 a month. Yes. US. And he can’t drop weights and they’re still rocking and rolling. It is possible everyone. It is possible. That’s, that’s awesome. So okay, so then you came in with a business background. You came in knowing that, hey, this is a thing that has to exist at some point without us and it needs to make money for us and our families. So, but then what, what prompted you to, to sign up for, for mentorship in the first place?

Oskar:                                        09:04                       Yeah, so our, our original business plan, was we, we got fed up of working big corporations in where they do annual health checkups but they’re useless. So, uh, we were frustrated and we said that we’re going to target corporate market and we’ll get them on corporate health programs at the gym and then we’re just going to run the crossfit individual crossfit classes. Sort of say we switched that around but, but I will say intent from the beginning. I’m going to talk about, yeah, that as well because yeah, it’s still fairly crossfit members. They, we charged like $45 from the beginning because that was just going to be an add on revenue for us. But over time we’ve changed that. We’d raised the prices early from like 45 to 75 to 95 to 125 to 155 to 165 over five years. So it would have known from the beginning was that we were going to run a nontraditional CrossFit gym.

Oskar:                                        09:57                       We wouldn’t have started with $45 a month obviously right here. Right. So that was like where we, where we started and we knew that we were, you know, we want to run to corporate thing cause we saw there was money in it and we all thought that it was the way corporate wellness programs run were not particularly efficient. So, but at some point we kind of switched from going to corporate sites to more traditional individuals. And at some point we saw that this is not going to be a lifelong commitment because we have families, we, you know, we can’t run this, the two of us with some extra help from part time coaches that need to stay. We’ve made a commitment to our clients and to their families and our families as well. And you know, this is not gonna fly. If we don’t get external help.

Mateo:                                      10:42                       So you’re saying you, you had a strategy, you were kind of trying to land these corporate wellness deals and that wasn’t working. You started to pivot. Where you’re just not seeing the growth that you needed to see or where are you two working a lot and burning out what was the,

Oskar:                                        10:58                       I think like we weren’t working a lot with probably working on, you know, less than 40 hours a week. But we were coaching the majority of the classes. That’s the two of us. And we enjoyed that. But, and, but we were at capacity, we couldn’t really bring in more members and at some point, you know, we got kids who want to take the summers off and, and stuff like that. And we saw that, no, not when people hear that’s loss of 20 pounds or 30 pounds, you know, with people that I’ve met in the gym with was we have made a commitment to them. Even though we just have monthly memberships, we count everyone as a lifetime member, we want to improve their life throughout life. So, and we said that in the past we were running right now this is not going to be sustainable. Not for us, not for the culture, it’s not for our members and not for our, our family. So then we need an external.

Mateo:                                      11:41                       Okay, great. So I see your prices were really low. So that was a problem like your ARM was, it sounds like your, your ARM was pretty low and that was kind of an issue.

Oskar:                                        11:51                       When it comes to that, the private, we were doing pretty good cause we had some corporates that would show with pain, you know, big tickets. But when we made a pivot we had to restart it. It’s going to be easier to attract regular individuals. CrossFit here is like four or five years behind you guys. So this is like in 2014 2015 and it was just kind of like the equivalent of, you know, your 2011-2012 ish.

Mateo:                                      12:12                       Got It. Okay. And then so you signed up for mentorship and what changes did you see in your business afterwards?

Oskar:                                        12:19                       Tremendous. And we had been working for quite some time. We’ve been following Chris and, and theTwo-Brain for quite some times. So I’ve been doing some, we’ve been moved on that at some of the uh, strategies. But we were, you know, we were kind of tired of treating ourselves as corporate because we’ve came from that. So we didn’t really want to have flow charts or processes written down. We wanted to be shoot from the hip because you know, we’re tired of feeling like we wear a suit. But that’s where we kind of, you know, had to come back and our mentor first said that you have to be like Mcdonald’s or like, I don’t want to be associated with but you know, the consistency of Mcdonald’s. I can’t say that I go into it too often, but I don’t really know if I’ve ever been disappointed or pleasantly surprised. But you know what you’re going to get when you go to Mcdonald’s? So that’s really where we started. All of solidifying in, in codifying our culture. So it was pretty clear that this, the way we run our business, our systems live in, you know, our culture lives in our systems.

Mateo:                                      13:16                       I like that. Yeah, I really like that. I think, I think what you’re touching on is kind of the first lesson in the incubator. It’s the vision and values section and how that needs to be, as you said, codified and written down somewhere so that it lives in your standard operating procedures. It lives in the way in which your, your coaches do things in your gym, do the service, and then it also helps, like it helps in the long run too because if that’s not clear and written down and codified, like you said, you know it’s going to be hard to teach that to your, to your staff and to make that experience consistent. If you have a certain value or a way our brand promise for your, for your gym, you’re talking about Mcdonald’s, you need that to be written down and codified, like you said.

Mateo:                                      14:00                       So it’s consistently being expressed through every aspect of customer engagement in your, in your service. Cool. All right. So, so that, that was a big, it sounds like having someone really you back in and say, Hey, I get that you were shooting from the hip before, but you know, you know, you know, some of this stuff. So just, you know, go back. Um, so that sounds like that was a big turning point for you guys. What else? Tell me a little bit about, you mentioned this a little bit before, which is you have a commitment to your clients and your staff once you open your doors. What do you mean by that?

Oskar:                                        14:36                       I think that we have these people come together and there’s, there’s a, there’s a obviously, do you have a contractual agreement that we should deliver some kind of service, you know, thrusters and burpees and they fork over some money. But I think it’s bigger than that. And, and that’s something I’ve realized, you know, last year Chris said it’s, it’s like a silent agreement of people coming together. And our part in that is making sure that we can stay on top to deliver them thrusters and burpees, but with, but throughout life it’s going to be ups and downs, but it’s, the commitment we’ve done to these people is to improve their lives throughout. So, so they can improve their families if they’re, you know, if they have kids, do you want them to be better parents if they, you know, were helped there, inspire their parents to be, you know, get off the couch.

Oskar:                                        15:18                       So I think it’s, you know, we started us as fun saying, you know, as a business it’s cool to work out. But I think it’s, it’s, it’s far bigger than that now that this commitment that we have is something we take really seriously. And, and that’s probably, as you mentioned, the number one reason why we just can’t shoot from the hip and more consistency is very important to us. And we’ve, we are probably gonna get into move into marketing, paid marketing, paid advertising. But we’ve been very fortunate in the way paid advertising has worked for us. But it to the point where we, you know, we burnt out to be totally honest. Working too much so we were too successful. So now Karl, my business partner, is phenomenal at talking to each coach. We don’t talk about, you know, coaching their squat or you know, a metabolic pathways or something.

Oskar:                                        16:04                       We just start by talking about value. So they sit down in here for an hour, just talks about values, values, values. And so we’re kind of at the point now where if so regardless of what problem is the, the, you know, the answer is all of us, your values. Greg Glassman said, you know, the, regardless of the problem, it’s the answer. Always a squat. But for the business it’s always values. So Karl takes them through that and that’s kind of something we’re trying to iterate all the time because it’s so easy to get caught up in thrusters and burpees or, or whatever. But that’s only manifested in the way we actually deliver. A service and that’s you. Our values.

Mateo:                                      16:33                       Yeah. If you have a problem, if you have a question, you turn to your core values and it should be right there. The answer should be right there for you. Awesome. So yeah, tell me a little bit about that. How often do you check in with your coach? It sounds like, it sounds like from what you’re telling me, you know, you, you, we asked you when we sit down with our members on a regular basis have what we call goal setting sessions to check in with them. Sounds like you do that with your coaches. Tell me that. What about that, that process?

Oskar:                                        16:57                       Yeah, so, so currently we have three full time coaches and then it’s Karl and myself are also like full time you know, you don’t do anything else, you know, obviously do some mentoring and some stuff like that. But we are on the payroll and then we’ve got a GM, a nutrition coach and then we’ve got five or six part time coaches and Karl sits down to talk with the coaches like weekly on life. How do you know, how do you, how do you feel it’s going? And then I’m trying, I’ve tried to focus more on, on the coaching, so we’re trying to check in at least at least weekly on the full time coaches and then eventually going to do the same thing with our part time coaches as well. And then we continuously produce material for our coaches to train, you know, in terms of like how do we effectively coach athletes or, you know, uh, so we tried to check in with them regularly because since we have now stepped away from being the baker or the, you know, that uh, we’re not really, we don’t really have the icon problem anymore.

Oskar:                                        17:51                       We have to make sure that our coaches deliver the same kind of message and service that we did in the beginning. So it’s really important that we check in with them that to see that they are actually doing what we want them to do. I’ll check and make sure, hey, like is this, make sure that whatever their life professional goals are, that you’re still in your, what you’re offering them is still in line with that and making sure that they’re worth the amount of hours they want to work and making what the want to make. Then you’re there for the quality control.

Mateo:                                      18:21                       So tell, tell me a little bit about how do you check in on your, how do you do quality control on your coaches when they’re doing classes? How do you do that?

Oskar:                                        18:31                       So the simplest way is that what we found that works the best is if we, if we, uh, we have them record, it was set up a video camera, they record the class and then they watch it. I watch it, they write down, you know, what they think was good, what can be improved. I did the same thing. We base it on, you know, the sixth criteria is that we teach on the, the level two: the teaching, seeing, correcting, presence, attitude, group management and demonstration. And then we grade them one to 10. Doesn’t really matter where the numbers are. But then we just find something to focus on for next time and then we just keep reiterating the, the process. So I watch them coach on video cause I can’t really watch them all the time.

Mateo:                                      19:13                       Well I was going to say how many hours you spending watching videos?

Oskar:                                        19:16                       Uh, we, well I don’t know. You don’t have to watch the entire session cause if you’ve watched an entire session yeah you, you can just, you know, you know once the warmup is over, you know, when you know this technique, whatever. If you just focus on one thing, it doesn’t really matter where just find a starting spot. It’s just like where do we start? Well anywhere. So I just want to focus on one thing, see that, the improvement in that thing and then we move on to the next.

Mateo:                                      19:37                       I think what you just said is so, so valuable. I remember when I was starting work on the incubator and you’re just like I got to track all this stuff. I create all these systems and I create all these processes. And it’s like, no, just pick one thing, one metric, one thing you want to measure. And then once you’ve regularly start measuring that, then you pick the next thing and the next thing. So it’s like, yeah, let’s focus on coaches warmups. Let’s just look at that for the next two weeks and just do that. And then we’ll move on to their strength and uh, them teaching barbell stuff and then we’ll move on to the metabolic part, metabolic conditioning part. So that’s amazing. All right, cool. So you watch videos, you have them watch it, you grade it, and then you discuss and work on and then give them their, their points of points of improvement.

Mateo:                                      20:18                       That’s amazing. So, all right. And I, I think that you mentioned paid advertising. I want to bring that up because you’ve been talking about consistency of service, right? You have to deliver excellence and you have to do it every time. And I think that’s probably a big part of what’s led to your success in some of the paid advertising. Because you last year alone, you spent, you know, a little, little over 15 grand, $15,000 in ads, and you were able to generate over 200,000 in front end, just front end sales from, from these ads. So tell us a little bit about your paid advertising system and why you think you’ve been able to, to have such awesome results.

Oskar:                                        20:59                       Yeah, this has come at a cost. You know, we need to mention that as well. We’ve, we’ve very dark. At one, 200,000 in front of, you know, they should be telling you we are doing really well right now, but there were some collateral damage. There were some, we lost some good soldiers on the way. So, yeah, but if we just start where we are currently, we, yeah. So I think it told Chris that the first time I spoke to him, like you know what we try to do when we, when we get told, I get told, you know, this is way to do it. I’ll see if I can break it.

Oskar:                                        21:39                       I try to reverse engineer it and break it to improve it and cause I think I have that obligation. I think if we’d have the same thing with, with marketing as well, because we started with the traditional, you know, the, the Two-Brain marketing thing, but as quickly as I could, I tried to destroy it because I think that we’ve made a, an agreement with all the other, you know, to bring clients to try and prove it. If everybody did just keeps the same thing, it’s going to be a regression to the mean. We were not going to have exponential returns. So there’s gotta be someone, the Ad from time to time brings in something that makes that jump from like zero to one. So that’s what we’re looking for. So we’ve been toying around quite a bit with paid marketing.

Oskar:                                        22:24                       But what would come down back to is that we put together a video for a, I don’t even know if we say it’s six weeks, but we essentially take, it’s a six week program and service or your fitness program that you’re offering. You have this video, right and we’ve done really well produced materials from a good fit, you know videographer and that was doing well. But we have one that I shot and they go process like Fisheye and it looks pretty weird. And what we did in the first, we didn’t specifically say there’s going to six week and name the price, we’ll try to edit that out a few times. So it’s, it squeaks a and it’s Funky as hell, but it’s working really well. And we bring in, everybody comes in on the same front end offer. We have a picture of, you know, Facebook, it comes to the landing page.

Oskar:                                        23:09                       So you see this video that’s been chopped up a few times now, but it’s still delivering. And we even, we have the price on the website, on the landing page because we want to filter people out because you know, we don’t want anyone to come in and take time. But even though we, we market a, you know, six weeks thing at $450, only 60% actually end up buying that. We sell a lot of nutrition and personal training based on a video we produced the nice looking video for, for personal training. But this funky one, the six week thing with our prices on converts better than the other one. So, uh, I don’t think it’s anything else but pure and sheer luck that it works really well for us.

Mateo:                                      23:48                       So tell me a little bit about, so someone, someone sees this ad, they, they, they watch your video, your funky video, they inquire what happens.

Oskar:                                        23:57                       Yeah. So as I said, we, we post the prices, we didn’t do that. We will do it ike six months from now because we want to filter out people because we are our, our cost per lead, they’re really low currently they’re like $8 with a price. So we want to filter out people. So they then we put out, you know where the final one, you know, tell them what we’re looking for. We specifically say we don’t want people that just want to do the six week or the time based thing. This is a longterm commitment and then they schedule a, No-Sweat Intro and schedule and then, and then what happened? Yeah, so we obviously have lead nurture in place. However, because we’ve been down to like $4 at the beginning of the year to acquire lead and they know the price, it’s actually cost us more to nurture the leads that just wait for someone else to book and call us.

Oskar:                                        24:53                       So too many people in that for you, you’re burning money. That’s currently are, we are like teach 75 members. I, we can’t have any more group members come in. So the key would keep running the same funky video because it works so well. But we’re trying to convert people in nutrition, personal training instead cause we can’t really fit any more group people. And so you use it as like a Trojan horse. They inquire about this thing and then you’re like hey by the way I’m not going to sell you this thing. No. Like we don’t like we try to pride ourselves on not selling. We just want them to make people buy. Yeah I understand we’d say. But everything we do is from health perspective and, and we do turn away, like I’d say eight of 10 are sign up with some kind of service cause we still filter them pretty hard.

Oskar:                                        25:42                       We just save that. I want to call them up for the intro that, you know, if you’re just looking for it, you know like you know, fat burn bootcamp. There are other places that will work better than us cause we were just, you know, this is not the place for you. But we try to, we also send people to other gyms. If they live too far away from our gym, we send them other way. You know, just we want people to come to us for the right reasons.

Mateo:                                      26:03                       And tell me a little bit about that. What happens when they sit down in front of you? How does that, how does that process work?

Oskar:                                        26:09                       Yes. Well currently it’s myself and Karl that does that because we enjoy that and our coaches are pretty full with doing goal reviews and personal training and run classes etc. We’re probably going to get our GM doing sales too soon.

Oskar:                                        26:19                       So we give them a tour of a gym. We have posters, have members and we have some other things for. So we’ll show that. It’s very important for us to show that we are evidence based. So we have the 11 message system. But regardless of what you have, we talk about your measurable results. We have pictures of members, we have some, they are fit. We have one member, John is, he’s, he’s had Parkinson’s for 23 years. He rides into the gym in, his electric wheelchair and, and uh, so we then his, his doctor said two years ago that he had six months to live and he’s still rocking and rolling and doing dinner, laundry you know, attributes a lot of that to crossfit. So we kind of like him to point out that yes, there is someone here that is less fit than you are. You can probably do it.

Oskar:                                        27:02                       Then after that we sit down and we try and figure out how we can help them best. You know, we ask questions on where they’ve been. Housewives, what are they looking for and we try to find an emotional reason for them to succeed. Uh, I think it’s important because everybody says they want to lose 20 pounds. I had a woman come in recently that said, eventually we got down to, she wanted to, you know, fit in her bathing suit. And I said, why? Because she’s currently driving across town to take her kids to the pool because she doesn’t want to go to the pool right next to her because you know, she’s embarrassed to take, take her kids there. And, and obviously that makes me want to help her a lot more than someone who just want to lose 20 pounds. And I hopefully that’s going to help her put in the time and effort to lose the 20 pounds.

Mateo:                                      27:44                       I love that. And you got to, you always have to ask why and then ask why again and ask why again till you get to the real reason. That’s awesome. That’s great. So you’ve got a full time staff, you’ve got a GM coming on board, you’re going to be able to put more and more on his plate, allow him to grow and have more or allow them to grow and have more opportunity. And you are, you’re, you have a profitable business, you’re a level one staff. What do you think’s been the key to your success?

Oskar:                                        28:12                       I do think there’s a lot of luck to it. Uh, I shared that, as I said, the videos kind of funky and we currently don’t really have that many. There aren’t that many people who compete with us on what we do. And I think we are kind of unique in, in, in, uh, in our branding or what we do. We don’t really, you know, we don’t have any, you know, bloody hands on our Instagram handle or something. So I think that plays a part to it. But I also think that we are just lucky in a sense. We tried it, we tried to look at numbers, but at the same time, at some point just, you know, I like to be datadriven we talked about it a lot, you know, in terms of, I know what are our cost per leads? They currently at $8 and I know how much money we made last year and, and all that.

Oskar:                                        28:58                       And I can see what age credit eight ad creative is performing better. What picture is it? But at some point you’re like modeling randomness. There’s so many variables I don’t control. So at some point we just have to have, we have to kind of define success for ourselves. Like could something work better? Probably. But are we happy at $8? Yes. Like what happens if they are at 12? I mean, we’re still happy. Yes, if they go up 18 is maybe that’s when we start doing something. So we try not to spend, you know, to, to, uh, to try to assess too much. And in our success, in terms of marketing, I do think we are good at, at, at really showing people that we care. I think that that’s, that’s, that’s very important. And we are willing to fail. We don’t, you know, we do spend a lot of money on marketing because we’d like to play around.

Oskar:                                        29:48                       We are going to start doing more personal training as now you don’t actually test them with our, you know, to bring in people from other gyms to see if we can test them on our leveling system, to just bring them in to do personal training at us to get the levels and then pass them on to go back to their own gym. So I think, but I think we, we, we have a deep respect for each other. Karl and I and, and we both, you know, want to succeed. And I think, you know, Josh, our mentor helps us a lot. So that’s a kind of a vague answer but I don’t really want to say I don’t want to take credit for, for the success we’ve had in in marketing. We just been fortunate to spend time with you. We’ve been lucky but we keep running with it. We do spend a lot of money in marketing as well cause we’re not, we’re not willing to to to, you know, it doesn’t really matter if the, if we fail, we just keep trying.

Mateo:                                      30:33                       I’m going to ask you one more time. You don’t have to be specific with marketing, just what’s been the key to your success in general with your gym in general?

Oskar:                                        30:42                       No, I think accountability. It’s very, it’s something that it comes down to. I think we attribute a lot of success at our members to accountability and that’s the same thing in terms of for business as well. We have a board that helps us a lot. We do have tremendous help from, from our mentor, you know, from you as well and Josh, both Karl and I are mentors. Like everything we say kind of go through the mentoring filter. So it’s kind of like, imagine being married to like, you know, a shrink or something. It’s kind of, it could be quite challenging from time to time, but the accountability and having a sounding board, it’s something that that has been tremendously important and, and our success and you know, marketing, phew, phew, phew. You and John in the beginning, Josh and Chris and everyone else, like, you know, we, we, we try to help to bring in families. So we, we do what we can and if we say that we are developing something in terms of marketing, we want to do it so we can give it back. If you’re doing something to have some coaches development, we say that out loud. We’ve made a commitment.

Mateo:                                      31:48                       Awesome. So, well first of all, thank you for coming on today and thanks for chatting with us. If people want to find you, if you don’t want to talk to you, people want to hang out, where can they find you? Yeah, this is where it would probably be: oskar@twobrainbusiness.com if you’re for some reason would be strolling around in the streets of Stockholm then you would be around our gym. You’re more than welcome to come in. We have amazing coffee. Beautiful. Awesome. Well thank you sir and uh, uh, probably see you in June, right? That’s right man.

Speaker 5:                               32:23                       Hey everyone. Chris Cooper here. I’m really thrilled to see you this year in June in Chicago at the 2019 Two-Brain Summit. Every year we have two separate speaking tracks is one for you, the business owner and there’s one for coaches that will help them make better, longer, meaningful careers under the umbrella of your business. This year we’ve got some pretty amazing topics like the client success manager, how to change your life organizational culture or the business owner’s life cycle, how to have breaks, how to have vacations, how to help your marriage survive, owning a business motivation and leadership. How to convert more clients, how to create a GM position that runs your gym for you and leaves you free to grow your business. How to start a business owner’s group in your community and more point here is to do the right thing that will help gym owners create better businesses that will last them for the long term, get them to tinker phase, help them be more successful, create meaningful careers with their coaches and give their clients a meaningful path to longterm health. We only do one big seminar every year and that’s the two brain summit and the reason that we do that is because a big part of the benefit is getting the Two-Brain community together and and welcoming strangers into our midst and showing them how amazing gym ownership really can be. We’ll have a link to the two brain summit including a full list of all speakers and topics on both the owners and the coaches side in the show notes. I really hope to see you there.

Speaker 6:                               33:52                       As always, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. We greatly appreciate you and everyone that has subscribed to us. If you haven’t done that, please make sure you do drop a light to that episode. Share with a friend, and if you haven’t already, please write us a review and rate us on how what you think. If you hated it, let us know if you loved it even better.

Speaker 7:                               34:17                       You guys later.


This is our NEW podcast, Two-Brain Marketing, where we’ll focus on sales and digital marketing. Your host is Mateo Lopez!

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Episode 164: Chris Cooper’s New Book, “Founder, Farmer, Tinker, Thief”

Episode 164: Chris Cooper’s New Book, “Founder, Farmer, Tinker, Thief”

Episode 164– Chris Cooper’s New Book: Founder, Farmer, Tinker, Thief

On this episode, we sit down with Chris Cooper, to talk about his new book: Founder, Farmer, Tinker, Thief. This will be Chris’s fourth book behind Two Brain Business, Two Brain Business 2.0, and Help Firstand it dives into the heart of entrepreneurship by discussing its four distinct phases. As a business grows, the entrepreneur must also grow and the passion that spurs a founder to quit his job and risk it all will eventually fade and other mechanisms will need to be in place to carry the business forward. Today we talk about this new book and how it came about, how to determine which phase of business and entrepreneurship you are in, and also how to take your business to the next level!


Don’t Forget about the 2019 Two Brain Summit, June 8-9 in Chicago! This year we have some amazing topics and guests for both yourself and your coaches. Click hereto register and sign up now!


The Four Phases of Entrepreneurship:


Founder: The entrepreneur has bought themselves a job. They work 60 – 70 hours per week delivering their service. Eventually, they will want to either make more money or just take the weekend off. 


Farmer Phase: The entrepreneur takes steps from “self-employed” to “business owner”. They build systems and processes, target ideal clients, start marketing to larger audiences, and make careers for others. 


Tinker Phase: The entrepreneur’s primary business largely runs itself, and his focus turns inward to reach the next level. He develops leadership skills; makes high level hires; and plans his next project. 


Thief Phase: The entrepreneur builds a legacy, plans for retirement, develop cash flow assets, takes passion to new markets, or develops new partnerships to grow their portfolio. 

Find out what stage of entrepreneurship you are in by taking the exclusive Two Brain test here: https://twobrainbusiness.com/test/or schedule your free mentoring call by clicking here!








1:35 – Introduction to Founder, Farmer, Tinker Thief

3:16 – How to determine which phase of entrepreneurship you are in?

10:05 – How many people are truly in the Thief phase of entrepreneurship?

11:06 – Robin Hood and the relation to the Thief Phase

12:56 – Is it okay to stay in the Farmer Phase?

20:12 – Growing your gym while away from your gym

22:56 – How to determine the next step for your business or gym

23:48 – Taking the Two Brain Business Entrepreneurship Test

27:02 – The Archie Brown Story, Moving to Farmer Phase

29:54 – Falling backward to previous phases

Greg:                                          00:02                       Welcome everyone to Two-Brain Radio. It is our mission at Two-Brain to provide 1 million entrepreneurs the freedom to live the life that they choose. Join us every week as we discover the very best practices to achieve perfect day and move you closer to wealth.

Announcer:                            00:26                       This episode is brought to you by Incite Tax. Incite tax is founded by John Briggs, a crossfitter, great big tall guy with a fantastic sense of humor and John is like a coach for your books. These guys are not just pencil pushing number crunchers. These guys will actually help you get towards your perfect day if you’re a member of our gross stage part of the mentoring program, you’re familiar with John’s videos on 10 99 versus w two contractors. See John used to work for the IRS. He’s seeing the other side of labor law and he knows exactly where the line is drawn. Don’t believe everything you read, but on the tax side, John can actually help you plan to take home more money every year and save more money on taxes because John is a certified profit first accountant. If you’ve listened to this podcast before, you know that I’m a big fan of Mike Michaoliwz’ profit first system and John at InciteTax and his staff can help you plan backward from profit to get to where you need to go. It’s helped members of the Two-Brain family buy houses in the first year that they’ve implemented profit first. It’s helped people save more money, take home more money and make the business do what it’s supposed to do, which is pay you.

Greg:                                          01:35                       All right. Hey, everybody listening to Two-Brain radio. I want to welcome back a used to be host, still hosting Chris Cooper. We’re going to talk about the book that will be open for preorders on Amazon as of right now. So welcome back Chris.

Chris:                                         01:49                       Yeah, thanks man. It’s the Chris and Greg show.

Greg:                                          01:52                       Exactly. Exactly. So, uh, I want to get into this. The book title is Founder, Farmer, Tinker, Thief. It is something that I know I’ve been hearing a lot about. What I kind of want to give a little bit of backstory to everybody so that they understand the amount of content that you can produce on a daily, weekly, even monthly basis. So when I, when I came up there in March, this wasn’t even a concept. This wasn’t an an idea. This was, this was never even, I don’t even think it was on any of the whiteboards that you had in your office. It was, it was nothing. And all of a sudden now we have a book, not even 10 months later that is out for preorder. Talk to me about what, what was the need? Why did you see that? That we had to have a system like this built and kind of, let’s get into it right now.

Chris:                                         02:43                       How like there, there’s no shortage of information, right? Entrepreneurship is cool, thanks to guys like Gary Vaynerchuk. People want to do entrepreneurship because they have this romantic vision of what the entrepreneurial life is like. And there’s a lot of good knowledge out there that supports the entrepreneur and it’s very, very easy to start a company now. Like you don’t even have to quit your job. You can start a side Gig, you can drive Uber’s, whatever you want. The problem is that not all of this information is good. There’s just as much bad as good frankly, and some of it is only good at the right time. So what happened, the problem now is paralysis by analysis. You know, we’ll talk to a lot of gym owners and other entrepreneurs who have a pretty good idea of what they need to do, but they’re not sure what they need to do first.

Chris:                                         03:28                       And they’re not sure, like which steps to take that precede other steps or, well, if I do this thing right now, am I going to have to undo it three months from now when I fix this other thing? You know? And so over the years and after having spoken to over 2000 entrepreneurs on phone calls, I started to realize that you can, you can break the entrepreneurial life cycle down into about four distinct phases and those phases I call the Founder Phase, Farmer Phase, Tinker phase and Thief Phase. Most entrepreneurs get stuck in farmer phase forever. Most media romances founder phase and then conveniently doesn’t talk about the hard part, but what most of us are trying to actually get to is that third phase, the tinker phase and some remarkable entrepreneurs, you know, the Kobe Bryants of business ownership, will actually make it to the fourth phase: Thief phase.

Greg:                                          04:16                       Going into each one of these phases. What is necessary for a business owner to know, hey, I’m in farmer phase or I’m in founder phase. What exactly is the metrics that we’re measuring to kind of know where we’re at or how the next phase, if if we transfer over, what’s, what’s that next phase look like?

Chris:                                         04:36                       Well there are about 30 different categories, but there are some, you know, some big kind of rocks that really determine where you’re at. So, you know, the first phase is Founder phase and you have a big idea and you make some kind of commitment to that idea. You know, maybe you quit your job and that’s it. You go all in and you open up a gym in a garage and this is all you’re doing. Or maybe you know, you start selling your macrame owls at the craft shop, you know, whatever. You’ve got this secondary stream of revenue. It’s, it’s working for other people. Like there is like an actual model for success in your industry or you’ve got this great idea and you’re hoping that one day it’s salable. You’ve uh, you know, created a new Nano Bot that fights cancer. So you know, you leap off and you start charging money for it.

Chris:                                         05:19                       And at that point, the second you receive a dollar in trade for your service or good. You are an entrepreneur and you’re in the founder phase. Now how do we determine like the hallmarks, the characteristics of the founder? Well, these are the romantic things that you see on like Instagram. It’s the hustle and Grind and Oh yeah, I’m up at 3:00 AM and I don’t take a paycheck. And you know, it’s people with their head down, they’re grinding, they’re doing it just for the love of the freedom of entrepreneurship. And that’s awesome. But that’s usually what kills most businesses is people, they can stay in that phase for a couple of years and they’re just so burnt out and exhausted and broke that they can’t afford to do it any longer. To get to the farmer phase, you need to start paying yourself a little something. You need to have a clear understanding of what every role is in your business.

Chris:                                         06:08                       You need to systemize every single thing, make yourself replaceable. In other words, in every single thing that happens in your business and you need to hire one person, and as soon as you’ve reached that phase, then your business is solid enough that you can start growing and start making careers for other people. You’re really kind of cultivating your idea. So you know, you’ve, you’ve got this seed and you know, it’s proven that it can make you some money but maybe not enough money. Maybe we need to replicate what you’ve already done it over and over and over again. Or maybe we need to do it times a thousand or we need to do it a slightly different way or we need to do it two ways at once maybe. And the farmer has a lot of options, but the farmer really can’t do it alone. So in the farmer phase, usually the entrepreneur is trying to add staff and they’re really trying to focus their time on high value roles.

Chris:                                         06:58                       This is also where most entrepreneurs get stuck–sometimes for 30 years. I was in the farmer phase for at least 10 maybe 12 where, you know, I’d have some staff doing some things, but it was never done exactly the way that I would do it. And I would micromanage them. And we had some diverse revenue streams, but they weren’t consistent. You know, I was always fighting fires. I was always checking my phone to get out of the farmer phase. What we want you to do is to be able to take like at least a month off from your business. We want you to hit 33% profitability. We want you to have a managerial layer. So somebody at the business other than you who will accept responsibility for operations. So if you decided to go to Hawaii for two weeks and there’s a flood at the gym, this person will answer the phone in the middle of the night and show up to meet the plumber, whoever.

Greg:                                          07:47                       And, and just to go on that note, I and people will hear this on the food for thought Friday, I had, this actually happened. I was up in Colorado. I was ready to go to the mountains for some snowboarding to learn how to snowboard. And instead at five, it was about four 50 I get a call from my GM that somebody broke into our facility and stole our computers and our iPads and decided to help themselves to some of our supplements. So I definitely had a GM that was there. She handled everything I needed her to do a, it’ll let us know that there is some steps in our procedure that we didn’t have in place that needed to be in place, but she did a phenomenal job at covering all of that. So that’s a perfect scenario for having somebody in that material, a state that that could handle and take accountability for everything.

Chris:                                         08:33                       Yeah. Well I’m sorry that happened, right? But I’m glad you had somebody there. We deal all the time, you and me with entrepreneurs who might kid themselves about how well their business is doing, and one of the ways that they do that is they’ll say, well, I can take a weekend off. I could get somebody to cover for me. But the reality is that that takes an extraordinary amount of work and people are doing you favors that they’re going to call in later and you’re really kind of digging deep into you owing them something. The real entrepreneur has choice. And really that’s what we’re trying to get to in the tinker phase is now you have this choice of how you spend your day. I guess a better way to say that is actually invest your time so you can choose to go work ion your business.

Chris:                                         09:13                       You can choose to go bake the donuts, coach the crossfit classes, aligned the spines, whiten the teeth if you want to. That’s the point is you have the choice. You could also duplicate your business. You could, you know, turn your gym into a franchise. You could also start a brand new business. You know, I think you and I agree that like every entrepreneur has at least two other good ideas. You could retire, you could do nothing, you could go buy your building. And really we want every entrepreneur to get to the Tinker phase because that means that their business is sustainable enough that they can’t really mess it up. So at this point, what you’re doing is you’re hiring a couple of other people in managerial roles. We call it like the meta roles. So in the farmer phase, to get out of the farmer phase, you hired a director of operations or like a GM that oversaw the daily delivery of your service.

Chris:                                         10:01                       And that meant that you weren’t tied to the delivery of that service anymore. On the Tinker phase, we want to have somebody that’s in charge of sales and marketing because that’s usually the founder of the company. And we also want a CFO because we don’t just want bookkeeping anymore. We want projection and we want like detailed analysis of what is actually making you money. So you can picture this hierarchy. Now you know in the founder phase it’s you doing everything. You are selling the muffins and making the muffins and you know, cleaning up afterward in the farmer phase you’re, you have staff who bakes them, often staff who does the cleaning and maybe you’re running the till until you can hire a manager to run the till. And then you’re working on marketing. And in the tinker phase there’s a manager running the till. You’re looking at opening up your second shop.

Chris:                                         10:47                       Your CFO is telling you what you can afford to do. And then in the tinker phase or the thief phase, where you’re actually doing is trying to build your legacy. So you’re, you’re leveraging your wealth, which is your time. And your money to affect the people in your local community best or your niche the best.

Greg:                                          11:03                       Excellent. How many people do you know that are in that? The thief phase?

Chris:                                         11:09                       I mean, so when you see famous entrepreneurs on social media really like these are, these are the guys who try to project that they’re in the thief phase and some of them are, you know, they’re, they’re really not part of the day to day operations of their company anymore. They’re worried about legacy. They are giving to charities, they’re creating funds or theyre mentoring other people within their niche.

Greg:                                          11:32                       Gotcha. Who would be, who would you say that you know of, not that you know them personally, but who would you say would actually be in the thief phase globally if you had a, if you had to choose?

Chris:                                         11:42                       BIll Gates for sure. I mean, he’s his own personal brand.

Greg:                                          11:45                       Okay, perfect. I just want to get that clarified because I think too many people, especially when you think of the, if you think of a negative connotation, and I want people to understand that that’s not what this is for. But more of thinking of Robin Hood I believe is the term you’ve used in the past. Have more of giving back and not taking.

Chris:                                         12:04                       Yeah, so you know Robin Hood is a great example of the thief that we talk about at Two-Brain because Robin Hood is, is moving resources from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration. You know Robin Hood in the, in the stories he stole from Evil King John and he gave to the poor and we’re not necessarily talking about that. I mean we’re not talking about literally stealing anything we are talking about is like leveraging high concentration of resources to low concentration of resources. This could mean a couple of things and I do actually know some thieves in real life. My first mentor was a thief. Denis had led three big corporations out of bankruptcy. You know, he’d led an employee buyout in one and another one, you know, he came to our city, there’s a huge corporation that employed about 2,700 people and their stocks were trading at like 70 cents.

Chris:                                         12:54                       He pulled the Lee Iaccoca and said, I’ll just take shares of stock instead of like a wage, pay me $1 my first year plus all these shares of stock. And in three years the shares of stock were selling an over $50 up from 70 cents. So he cashed out and he said that his legacy was going to be to mentor five local entrepreneurs. So when you’re in that, theif phase, um, there’s a couple of things that you can do. You can move horizontally. You can, you can take your service or your product into a different niche and just duplicate it that way. Like create a mirror image of your product but in a different niche. Or you can move vertically. And that is to mentor other people in your niche who are coming up behind you. And that’s what Denis did. He went vertical and he picked five of us. I don’t know who the other four are. I’d love to find them. And he helped us build like these, these great businesses locally.

Greg:                                          13:44                       Awesome. Awesome to hear. And I’m glad, uh, that was a possible luck of the draw. It sounds like that out of five, five businesses that he would mentor, you were one.

Chris:                                         13:53                       Yeah.

Greg:                                          13:54                       So my next question would be, okay, if, I mean I’m in the founder phase, I hire my first employee, I get to the farmer phase, and even if it was the founder phase that I was comfortable with, or the farmer, is it okay to stay there?

Chris:                                         14:09                       Should you stay in the farmer phase?

Greg:                                          14:11                       Correct. If, if I’m a business owner, um, I hired my first employee. I really love what I do. I want to continue doing it. Let’s say automotive. I love being a mechanic. I love working on cars. It’s just something that I would do for free and I did for free or something in this scenario would, would you say if I don’t, if I don’t want to get out of my business, I don’t want to hire a GM. I want to continue keeping it small. And the perfect example I say automotive is, is my stepfather. And then even my father who owns a garage door business, they are each a one man team and they love doing that. They love doing each, each, each business that they own and they don’t want to get out of it. They want to grow old. They eventually want to just stop doing what they’re doing and maybe sell off their client lists if they can or whatever. But the business won’t be around anymore. And they’re both okay with that. Uh, so my question really is, is, is it okay to be okay with that or should we always be looking for that next step?

Chris:                                         15:03                       Well, I mean, we are going to have a great conversation about this because I don’t think it is. Okay. And I’ll give you a couple of examples in my neighborhood and I’ll try to use like the automotive industry. So, you know, two doors down from a couple of buildings that I own. There’s this very niche satellite radio company and you know, we’re in northern Ontario. People who are working up in the forest, they need to have satellite radios. And for 25, 30 years, this technology was crazy expensive. It required like some, some real expertise. And so this guy had ran a business for 25 30 years, pretty successfully. Uh, he went up and he serviced the towers himself. And if somebody’s cell phone broke down in the middle of the bush, he would go find them and he would fix it. And he was happy having that job.

Chris:                                         15:49                       And then one day he decided he was going to retire. He was already 70 years old. He had one staff guy who was also like 70 years old and that guy was retiring. So this guy, whose name is really Bob, says I’m going to hang it up too. And then he realizes, what do I have to sell here? You know, there’s kind of a business, but there’s nothing written down. I don’t really have a client list. I have a list of people who have purchased from me in the past and I have all these guys that I kind of remember and I called him up and I don’t really have like an invoicing process. I, I don’t, I can’t forecast anything, you know, I make what I make. And his daughter said, Daddy, I want to take your business over. She left her job, started running his business, and within a year it had impoverished her, she was out of money and he was trying to start again from scratch.

Chris:                                         16:37                       Now your grandfather and your dad are smarter than that. What they should be concerned with is what kind of legacy am I leaving? And I think that the parachute for the entrepreneur is a company that’s a cash flow asset, meaning it can run itself no matter what. So this guy, Bob is, he’s back in business. I Dunno, I think he’s probably making some money, but what would have happened 20 years ago, if he would have fallen from a tower, his family would have been impoverished. Nobody would’ve been able to step up and take over this business because there’s what is there to take over. And so like your security, your parachute, your stability, the foundation that you’re going to build a meaningful life with, it should be stable enough that you can walk away from it, that you can get hit by a bus and your family is still gonna be okay.

Chris:                                         17:19                       You know, one of my first unofficial mentors when I started a business was named Nick. Nick was a mechanic. He worked on cars and he bought his garage from a guy who had owned it for about 25 years. And the other guy was named Harold. And Harold had run this garage called Harold’s garage in a little town near where I grew up. And when Nick bought it from him, he bought it pretty cheap. And it wasn’t enough for Harold to retire on, but Harold couldn’t work anymore, you know, years of working in an automotive shop. You know what that does to you. Right. Especially then, his health was in decline. He never really made enough money to do more than support his family. You know, I don’t think he had much in savings, but I can’t speak to that. And when Nick bought it for $80,000, he was paying about four times what it was actually worth.

Chris:                                         18:03                       Cause he liked Harold. And what he found was that Harold had a ton of friends and all these friends said, I’ll come back and pay you on Friday. Or, Hey, can I give you 100 bucks this week and come back? Or Hey, thanks for ordering those tires for me. I don’t really need them. You know, he wasn’t running it like a business. And what that did was it almost drug Nick down and Nick’s family, his wife Linda, you know his daughters, and Nick had to fix it. Nick had to take the business, become a farmer himself right away and reach tinker phase before that business would be worth anything. And eventually Nick, who was a close friend, did have a sudden heart attack. That’s a crazy story in itself. And he passed away. And if he hadn’t systemized that business, his daughters would have been left with nothing.

Greg:                                          18:47                       Okay. And that’s a, that’s a great counter to my, my stories there. That was a, I wasn’t ready for that. I’m glad. I’m glad that we were able to share that because I did get asked that question recently. If, if somebody is comfortable in, in the founder phaser farmer face, do, do they have to go to tinker? And my always, I mean from previous experiences with my stepfather and my father having their own businesses that I said, no, they’re happy in their founder phase. They don’t, they don’t want to go to farmer phase. But if, if somebody is looking to leave a legacy and be able to support their family when something happens, they kind of need to push themselves to get to that tinker phase. And if they, from my understanding, and correct me if I’m wrong, but in this instance, if they want to still work on cars or work on radios, they can still do it. But, uh, they need to have a business that runs itself.

Chris:                                         19:34                       And that’s it, man, is they’ve got to have that choice. You know, your dad and your grandfather are very lucky that they still enjoy their work. 30 years in, you really don’t see that much. But I know a lot of listeners to this podcast own gyms, they jumped into entrepreneurship through owning a gym. They’re young, they’re passionate. They just want to be a coach. They’ve kind of bought themselves a job. And I get that because I was there for a decade. But the bottom line is that if you don’t start putting those systems in place first and start like right now and think about, I’m going to get to tinker phase someday, then by the time you hit that 10 year mark and you’re tired and you’re not making any more money than you were 10 years ago, where your kids are getting bigger and they’re eating more and they got to go to prom, you know, it’s, it’s almost too late.

Chris:                                         20:20                       Like you have to start with the end in mind and the end is choice. So in the tinker phase, what we want to do is have you virtually retire from running the business. If you want to go to work every day and show up and mop the floors, that’s fine, but you’re retired. They don’t need you there, right? You’re think of yourself as like a ghost in your own business. If you want to go coach people, that’s cool. I don’t. I go to crossfit. You know, I experience my business as a consumer now and that’s it. Um, I recently ran a test to see could I stay out of my gym for six months. Like literally not set a foot in it and, three months in it’s happening. I’m still doing crossfit. I’m still following my gym’s programming and riding my bike. Still love Crossfit, still love my gym, still have lunch with the members, but I want to see if I can go six months without being there.

Greg:                                          21:08                       Excellent. Excellent. And I’m in a, I’m in the same instance. I mean, I’m, I’m completely in a different state. Uh, I’m in Colorado right now and my gym’s down in New Mexico and I have not stepped foot in there in a, at least a month and a half because I’ve been up here. I plan on going back here in a week, but it’s one of those same scenarios, so I can definitely see where you’re coming from to see, just to keep pushing the envelope. Let’s, let’s not, not do I get hit by a bus test today for a week, but once a week, what’s two weeks? What’s five weeks? What?

Chris:                                         21:38                       Yeah. I’ll tell you something else that I’ve just learned from you and from Josh Price in the last couple of weeks. And Jay Williams even brought this up too. So I went out to San Fran to visit with Jay and all of you, and Jay said, you know what, I’ve been out of my gym for a week. And it’s better when I’m not here. People make decisions on their own, they take action and they want my gym to grow. So they do the right things. When I am here, they don’t take action. They wait to talk to Jay. They ask Jay’s permission, they wait for Jay to tell them what to do. And you know, Josh price told me the exact same thing. He, he moved from Virginia down to Mississippi. And guess what? His gym is better than it was. It’s more profitable, you know, their retention is better, all these things.

Chris:                                         22:18                       So my point is that like, a lot of the times when we get to the tinker phase, we start to get in our own way. Like, we stick our fingers in the machine because we feel like, oh, we’re not needed anymore. You know, nobody can make the donuts like I can. And that’s just not the truth. And sometimes for the, for the better of our clients and our staff and our spouse, we need to get the hell out of there, get out of their way, you know, start working on the next big project. And that’s really what the tinker phase is all about.

Greg:                                          22:45                       And I, uh, I can attest to that 100% that my business has better retention, we have better profit margins and my staff takes better action. I mean, I, they’ve, well they’ve created over the past two months, two new programs in, within the business. Uh, and I’ve had zero effect on that except for jumping on to Fiverr, get a logo made.

Chris:                                         23:06                       That is so the funny part here, Greg, is you know, people who aren’t in the tinker phase who are maybe still in the founder phase, they’ll hear that and they’ll be like, ah, man, why can’t my staff be motivated like that? Right. And that’s not it. The problem is that they haven’t brought their business up to the point of farmer phase and then taking themselves into tinker phase. Okay, I’m the leader that my staff deserve.

Greg:                                          23:28                       All right. I couldn’t, I couldn’t agree more on that. And I think anybody out there that is listening, that is in that farmer phase and they’re trying to achieve getting into that tinker phase. The biggest tactical cue I could give to somebody is get out of your own way. Let your staff make decisions and empower them knowing that the decisions they’re going to make will influence the business. Of course positive and negative, but you are going to stand behind them and back that decision that they do make. Yeah.

Chris:                                         23:54                       And so we say that in the founder phase and the farmer phase, like we’re mentoring you on the business. In the tinker phase, we’re mentoring you as an entrepreneur, if that makes sense. You know what we get from a lot of people who take the test and they immediately say, oh that’s me, is they’ll also say, oh, here are the steps that I need to take to get there. So having this framework of like four different levels, it’s stickier than I thought, number one, but number two, it tells you here’s what the next step in my business is and as a mentor it made my job a lot easier because you know, if I’m looking at my client, I’m like, okay, he’s got 33% profit margin. He’s working less than 40 hours a week, but every client only wants to come to his class. All he has to do to get free of that gym and reach wealth and get to tinker phase is to establish his staff as experts that I know what we’re going to do this month. You know it, it really clarifies the picture.

Greg:                                          24:46                       Agreed. Now I want to hit on a point you just made you, you said you created a test to basically tell where somebody is in this, in this spectrum of founder, farmer, tinker, thief, what took to actually create that test and where can people go if they want?

Chris:                                         25:02                       If you’re a gym owner, go to www.twobrainbusiness.com/test . If you’re not a gym owner, but you’re listening to this podcast and you own another company, go to www.twobrain.com/test . Two different websites. One is specifically tailored for the fitness industry, which is, you know, our passion. One is tailored for the service industry. So if you don’t own a gym, go to www.twobrain.com/test .

Greg:                                          25:26                       So what did it take to build the test?

Chris:                                         25:28                       Well, when I was starting to think about categorizing the, the entrepreneurial life cycle, I started to ask myself like, what are the hallmarks of, you know, when somebody transitions? So for example, going from farmer to tinker means that you, you’re done kind of working on the business. It’s self sustaining. You’ve got an ops manager, but you’re not done working on yourself yet. You still have to become a better entrepreneur and a better leader.

Chris:                                         25:55                       And I spent the last two years traveling with entrepreneurs who are just reaching this tinker phase and they’re struggling with a lot of things, like they’re going through what my CFO would call the valley of death. You know Greg Crabtree, he wrote Simple Numbers. He’s my CFO and he writes about this valley where your company is grossing between two and 5 million a year. And like you’re hiring people who are specialists now and they’re better at one particular thing that you are. Maybe they’re getting paid more than you were ever paid in the past. So you’re dealing with big sums of money and you’ve kind of like got this imposter syndrome. And at that point you’re not talking about fixing your business anymore. You’re, you’re talking about growing as a leader. And that’s really what the tinker phase is about. It’s about growing as a leader. It’s using the tools that you have to enter your most creative and focused state.

Chris:                                         26:47                       It’s about focusing on like one project maybe at a time, et cetera. So when you’ve got all these criteria, then I can work backwards from that and say like, okay, well what has to be in place for the business to be self sufficient enough for me to move into tinker and develop myself as a leader? Well I have to be at a 33% profit margin. Somebody else has to bear the burden of responsibility for success. I have to have all my roles done. I have to have, you know, like a retention strategy. I have to have good sales training for my team, et Cetera. And then moving backward even further, like before somebody can have a roles and tasks and advanced roles and a manager, well the first step is they have to pay themselves and they have to hire one person, you know, and so founder phase, it all kind of trickled backward from tinker.

Greg:                                          27:32                       Okay. And I want to, I want to go on this specific story cause I definitely want to share this because you shared it with me right when it happened and I thought it was, it was hilarious to hear, but so happy that somebody, somebody got this result. I want to get, get to the Archie story and the results that that Archie had.

Chris:                                         27:51                       So when I started thinking about founder farmer, tinker thief, like they didn’t, nothing had a name yet. You know I was thinking about farmer because I grew up a farmer and I was thinking about founder because like a lot of entrepreneurial media is like Hashtag founder Hashtag Grind Hashtag Hustle. And so I was kinda thinking like, okay well you know the founder is planting the seeds and the farmers cultivating the crop and all this stuff. And I came up with the test right before our summit in June. I had no idea how sticky these terms would be. No idea. And so I thought like okay, I’m going to talk about this at the summit for about 35 minutes and then I’m going to leave it alone. And what happened was Archie Brown, you know, the V-Fit takes the test the night before the summit, comes in the next day and says, Oh man, I’m stuck in founder phase, but I know what I gotta do to get to farmer. And for me that was the tipping point. That’s when I said, this is important and, uh, we’re going to pursue it because not only is it helpful to the mentor to know, like, what to focus on, but it’s also inspirational to the client because they know what they have to do.

Greg:                                          28:55                       And I love that story. I love that. I remember when you told me that he came in and he kind of threw his arms up in the air and was like, I thought I was in farmer. I’m only in founder. He was, but he had the steps already built out to know exactly what he needed to do, which I thought was just so amazing. And I was so happy to hear that. Uh, he was able to do that, to have those steps in and kind of go forward.

Chris:                                         29:19                       Like our goal as mentor is to take incredibly bright people and help them get to action. Right. And at that moment, the founder farmer tinker thief framework proved itself as a valuable tool to do that. Uh, Archie is extremely smart. He’s extremely hardworking. What he and every entrepreneur needs to know is like, this is the next step to do right now to the exclusion of all others. Taking the test showed him the next three steps and he started hammering, you know, and now every week now people are retaking the test and like they’re screen shotting it and they’re putting it up in our Facebook group. Man, I hit tinker, boom. You know, a guy sent me a picture of the, the tinker logo on his fridge last night because he made it, he did it, you know, and now he’s starting to feel like, damn, I’m a real entrepreneur.

Chris:                                         30:08                       But the funniest story really to date is when I, I still do free calls with entrepreneurs. You know, I’m just just past 2000 I still do probably seven or eight a week. The funniest story is when I get on a call and somebody will say, I’m in farmer phase. You ever heard of that? You know, I’ll say, yeah, I’ve heard of that. He’s like, well, like can your, can your firm get me out of the farmer phase? And I’m like, we invented the farmer phase. Yes. You know? Um, absolutely we can. And so I think it’s, it’s just amazing like how sticky this whole concept has become and, and thereby helpful to our clients. It’s not just sticky because it’s helping us sell mentorship. It’s sticky because it’s a tool that’s actually helping people make like huge positive steps as entrepreneurs,

Greg:                                          30:53                       Let’s say I make it to, to, to tinker phase, but what I notice is I keep falling back into farmer stage in that transition. What, what is the reasoning for that? Why, why would I keep falling back in?

Chris:                                         31:05                       That could be a couple of things. And, and we do see this like, you know, in the fitness industry, the perfect analogy is the guy that opens up four gyms before his first one is self sufficient. You know, like completely automated, hands off. And so what happens is he just grinds himself into the dirt. The reason that people fall back into farmer is one of two things. Number one, the harder one is ego. We need to feel like we’re important in our business. We started it. Nobody can do it as good as me. I make the best donuts. We keep sticking our fingers in the machine and breaking things so that we feel needed. And that’s what it comes down to. You know, hey, business is going great. Never made this much money in my life. Let’s switch to wodify and, and we create this drama because our brains are like trained to react to drama.

Chris:                                         31:56                       We’re attracted to it. You know, we create it. We stepped back in and we saved the day. We’re the hero in the business again, we’ve proved to ourselves that like the business really needs us and uh, we stay in farmer forever. The other one is that you haven’t completely resolved the farmer problems. So you know, you get to tinker phase, you’re starting to look around like, damn the world is great. I get to buy a building, I’m going to start thinking about my retirement. Now I’ve got this other idea for a tee shirt company. I’m going to start, can’t wait. And then one of your coaches doesn’t show up or you get a call from a client saying, hey, since you stopped coming to the gym, it’s a pigsty or the food doesn’t taste as good when you don’t cook it. And so you’re drug back down into farmer until you completely resolve those issues. And I learned that from John Maxwell’s five levels of leadership. Like do you want to get to level three leader in the Maxwell hierarchy? You have to completely replace yourself at level two with somebody else. And, and we use an analogy to explain that in founder, farmer, tinker thief. And that is you have to leave a farmer behind. So when you graduate into the tinker phase, you have to have a staff person who will act as a farmer and run your business and probably be happy like that even if you never will. Be

Greg:                                          33:08                       Awesome to hear. Awesome to hear. Cause I know a lot of people out there that are listening have that tendency to jump in, think they’re, they’re moved into the next next phase, but they kind of fall back each time. So this book is now on and we’re going to link the, the test in the show notes. We’re also going to link the preorder, uh, on this book so that everyone can get their hands on it asap. I know I can’t wait for it to come out. I will definitely have a copy. Hopefully there’s an audible copy eventually because I am very big into that compared to reading. This is just something that is not a skill of mine that I know and I’m aware of, but I definitely can’t wait to get my hands on.

Chris:                                         33:49                       Oh Man. Lots of, uh, thieves get to that level without reading. They don’t like reading. It’s fine. Yeah. So it’s on Amazon on May 7. It’s will be on Barnesandnoble.com. The audio book will be out on Audible.com on the same day. This book took, I mean I, I wrote it with a fervor, I felt compelled to write it and you know, I produce about 6,000 words a day because I just can’t not do it. I wake up in the morning, at literally 2:00 AM today facing a big problem that one of our mentoring clients was trying to solve. I work through It through writing and out of that came the book, while I didn’t want this thing to be a textbook. So there’s, you know, a lot of stories in there and examples and you know, scenarios. I think it’s a lot of fun to read. But if you take the test first and you find out, okay, I’m in the farmer phase and you read the first half of the book, I mean you can, you can fold it up and go to work. You know, you can call your mentor and say, here’s my next step. Or you can let them tell you their next step. You might not have to read the whole thing, but I hope you do.

Greg:                                          34:47                       Excellent. And again, thank you Chris for jumping on and being able to explain the book, founder farmer, tinker thief, which again is available for preorder on Amazon, so please go jump on the show notes, click that link and get that book ordered on May 7. Thank you for jumping on and we greatly appreciate it. It’s always a pleasure and we wish you the best. Thank you Chris.

Chris:                                         35:06                       Hey everyone. Chris Cooper here on really thrilled to see you this year in June in Chicago at the 2019 Two-Brain summit. Every year we have two separate speaking tracks is one for you, the business owner, and there’s one for coaches that will help them make better, longer, more meaningful careers under the umbrella of your business. This year we’ve got some pretty amazing topics like the client success manager, how to change your life, organizational culture or the business owner’s life cycle, how to have breaks, how to have vacations, how to help your marriage survive, owning a business motivation and leadership, how to convert more clients, how to create a GM position that runs your gym for you and leaves you free to grow your business. How to start a business owner’s group in your community and more. The point here is to do the right thing that will help gym owners create better businesses that will last them for the long term, get them to tinker phase, help them be more successful, create meaningful careers that their coaches and give their clients a meaningful path to longterm health. We only do one big seminar every year and that’s the Two-Brain summit and the reason that we do that is because a big part of the benefit is getting the Two-Brain community together and and welcoming strangers into our midst and showing them how amazing gym ownership really can be. We’ll have a link to the Two-Brain summit including a full list of all speakers and topics on both the owners and the coaches side in the show notes. I really hope to see you there.

Announcer:                            36:35                       As always, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. We greatly appreciate you and everyone that has subscribed to us. If you haven’t done that, please make sure you do drop a light to that episode. Share with a friend and if you haven’t already, please write us a review and rate us on how what you think. If you hated it, let us know if you loved it, even better. See you guys later.


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TwoBrain Marketing Episode 5: Mary Weider

TwoBrain Marketing Episode 5: Mary Weider


Two Brain Marketing Episode 5: Mary Weider


Today we are joined by Mary Weider of CrossFit Oshkosh. Mary has helped her gym’s growth explode by launching and running many successful marketing campaigns. Join us today as we learn about how Mary has setup and run these successful campaigns to grow the business! 


Mary grew up spending most of her time in the gym as a competitive cheerleader. After stumbling upon CrossFit in 2013, she found her passion and motivation for fitness again and now coaches at CrossFit Oshkosh! Mary loves to help clients build relationships with fitness and push themselves to reach their goals. 


Don’t Forget about the 2019 Two Brain Summit, June 8-9 in Chicago! This year we have some amazing topics and guests for both yourself and your coaches. Click hereto register and sign up now!


Contact Mary:





3:00 – Introduction to Mary Weider

6:20 – Mary’s experience before and after gaining help from Two Brain at her gym

9:05 – What is it that CrossFit Oshkosh Sells other than just CrossFit

10:50 – The importance of spending a lot of time on the No Sweat Intro

15:15 – How often should a marketing campaign be tweaked and re built

18:03 – How to handle lurking clients who have not signed up yet

20:05 – The key to a successful marketing campaign is consistency

23:16 – How to contact Mary

Announcer:                            00:02                       Welcome everyone to Two-Brain radio. It is our mission at Two-Brain to provide 1 million entrepreneurs the freedom to live the life that they choose. Join us every week as we discover the very best practices to achieve perfect day and move you closer to wealth.

Chris:                                         00:26                       Debt is a tricky subject in our world. We’ve been taught by HQ to avoid debt, to accumulate cash and when we’ve got enough money to spend it. But in the business world, the reality is that there’s good debt and there’s bad debt, good debt creates an asset and there’s also something called opportunity costs. Meaning if you wait until you can afford something, you probably never will be able to afford it and you’ll be missing a ton of opportunity. In the meantime, let’s say for example that you were bursting at the seams and your clients couldn’t attend a 6:00 PM class anymore because there was a waiting list. So they started canceling their memberships. You’re missing an opportunity cost here, the opportunity to keep your current clients because if they’re paying for a membership and they can’t attend that are not going to keep that membership for long.

Chris:                                         01:14                       So you’re looking to expand and so you’re going to have to take on some debt or you’re going to wait until you have the $10,000 or whatever that amount is to buy the new equipment. You can keep turning new clients away while you wait and try and accumulate this money or you can leverage the capital through guys like RigQuipment. Rigquipment is a partner that we chose at Two-Brain Business because their commitment to crossfit and their commitment to helping first has been proven over several years. I got to admit, I shy away a lot from money people. It’s intimidating to work with people who understand money and finance better than I do. I’m sure you feel the same way, but these guys have shown up time and time again. They’ve offered free help. They’ve turned down business a lot of times because they aren’t sure if the person has a good working business model and to be honest, they’ve sent people to us and let us turn them down for them because they wanted to know if this person’s plan was going to work before you expand, before you start out.

Chris:                                         02:16                       It’s super important that you know what you’re getting into, that you have a plan to pay back the debt, that you have a plan to increase cashflow that you’re going to do based on new purchase equipment has a great tool. If you go to their site RiqQuipment.com you can figure out if you can’t afford that expansion, should you be buying that new rig or should you be investing in something else like mentorship? These guys will even finance Two-Brain business incubator phase if you purchase it with your equipment because they understand that the incubator makes your business more viable, it’s less of a risk for them. I love working with clay and Joe from RigQuipment because these guys understand what our service in life is and that matches their service to.

Mateo:                                      02:59                       Hello and welcome to the TwoBrain marketing podcast. I’m your host Mateo Lopez. I’m one of the digital marketing mentors at TwoBrain business and thanks again for tuning in. This is your weekly dose of Digital Marketing Magic. Every week we’re going to go over marketing campaign strategies, useful tips and updates to keep you in the loop on the ever changing landscape of advertising on the Internet for Your Business. And in today’s episode, we have a very special guest. We have Mary Weider, and you’re going to learn how her team and her gym has spent over the last year around $10,000 in ad spend and generated close to $25,000 in front end sales. So we’re gonna learn how exactly she was able to double their, their money over there at the gym. So, uh, Mary. Hi. Good. So Mary, tell us a little bit about who you are, where you are, where your gym is in, a little bit about, you know, how long have you been in business?

Mary:                                         03:52                       Sure. So our gym is located in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, which is about an hour north of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Just for some reference. A lot of people don’t know where Oshkosh is, well I guess we could compare it to the games were like an hour and a half away from Madison.

Mateo:                                      04:07                       Okay. There you go.

Mary:                                         04:11                       So I started crossfit when I was a junior in college cause I Oshkosh is a college town.

Mateo:                                      04:17                       Oh that’s kind of like I started when I was a freshman.

Mary:                                         04:20                       Yeah. Like working two jobs just to be able to afford the kind of thing. But yeah, so I started when I was in college and my degree is actually in journalism and public relations. So I had a little bit of background in communications and marketing and social media. I started coaching in November of 2016 1716 or 17 and then a few months later after we got started withTwoBrain, Austin sat down with me and we came up with a plan for me to create ads and handle all of our leads and stuff like that. All the TwoBrain marketing stuff. So we’ve been doing that I think since April. And yeah, it’s been going really well and it’s definitely been the most steady stream of new members. We’ve gotten since. Crossfit Oshkosh has been open in 2013 so yeah.

Mateo:                                      05:11                       And for those who don’t know who are listening, Austin’s awesome. The owner over a crossfit oshkosh. Great. So that’s so funny. I also found crossfit when I was in college and then it was this weird thing, whereas it came back from freshman year back to my parents’ house in Los Angeles and they were like, you should try this crossfit gym that opened up by our house. You would like it. And I was like, okay. And then I was hooked. I just, I looked at Bryce who was the owner at the time and I was just like, I want to have your life, I want to be you. When I grow up. And from that point on, like every, I would go back to school and in New York there wasn’t any crossfit. There was super new still, there weren’t any gyms really. There were like three in Manhattan and I just was like trying to find, I could just mop their floors and get a membership.

Mary:                                         06:00                       That’s what I did. I cleaned for my membership to very similar. Yeah.

Mateo:                                      06:06                       And it wasn’t that I was like, I want to be your intern there like that. That’s not a real thing. Yeah. I just felt like you can’t intern and then get a crossfit job, but I didn’t know. But that was, yeah, that’s very funny that it was similar path. Okay. So talk a little bit about your experience working with Austin at the gym prior to TwoBrain in general and then how you saw the business change after going through some of the mentorship and implementing some of the, the best, uh, the best practices in the standard operating procedure work that we do and in some of that stuff.

Mary:                                         06:41                       Sure. I would say about like six to nine months before we started TwoBrain, I started taking over like their social media. So just creating posts organically and content and sharing blogs and stuff like that. But that was all we were doing. We weren’t putting money behind anything. I don’t want to say there was no rhyme or reason to their marketing, but they definitely didn’t have like an ad system in place. It was kind of just, you know, the basic, let’s go to this health fair or let’s put an ad in this flyer every once in awhile. But there wasn’t like a steady, you know, putting money into something to get revenue out. It was just kind of taking opportunities as they presented themselves and that was about it. So yeah, once we found TwoBrain, we sat down and created the ads and created our six week challenge. And I don’t want to say like our first month was beginner’s luck, but I think since we were out there on social media for the first time, like reaching an audience who was around us and had an interest in fitness, like are like that first month was just insane. Like we were getting new members, like probably like two new members a week. We could hardly keep up but in a really good way. So yeah, it was, it definitely put us out there in a way that we had never reached before.

Mateo:                                      08:01                       Did you see any differences in the way the business was operating, being a staff member before TwoBrain and then after going through the mentorship process?

Mary:                                         08:09                       Definitely. So our back end went through a little bit of a change. There were two owners at one point and then Austin took over. I knew he always wanted to get into TwoBrain and that’s when he really made things happen at that point. So since then when we joined TwoBrain a lot of more, a lot more processes were put in place just every day to day stuff, task lists, you know, stuff like stuff like that. That is a lot of behind the scenes work for the staff and the coaches.

Mateo:                                      08:38                       Awesome. Great. So did you find that it was just easier to understand what the goals were for the business for that day? For that week? For that month. Okay.

Mary:                                         08:49                       Yeah. Goals were much more apparent and much not even like the end goal is, but like how to get there and how to achieve those goals. And when we had to do the goals were actually written out for us. So that made, that made us make a plan and take some action.

Mateo:                                      09:04                       That’s great. So awesome. So in your word, in your own words, now that you have this marketing machine running, what is it that you sell and how do you sell it?

Mary:                                         09:16                       So we sell our six week challenge like a lot of other TwoBrain are. We have a couple of different levels of our six week challenge. We have just a nutrition power hour and crossfit classes. We have custom nutrition and crossfit classes and then custom nutrition and PTs. So how we sell it, we have ads on Facebook of course talking about the six week challenge. We have those that are targeting female and those that are targeting males with either a video of Austin, or I and then some stock images as well. And then that

Mary:                                         09:49                       it’s the attention. But we really do all of our selling during No Sweat Intros and by contacting leads. So it’s funny because when we first started this, I was like, someone’s going to see an ad once and you know that’s it. They’re either gonna come or not. But what we’ve found over this past almost year is that a lot of people who come are people that have seen the ads like four or five times and are like, okay, this is a sign and finally going to give it a chance. So that’s been really cool. But our lead process is pretty consistent. We use Uplaunch, so we have, once someone becomes a lead they start getting emails and texts and phone calls from us right away. Sometimes we send out like what are your goals? Asking them that sometimes it’s like content we’re giving them so you know, five tips for Blah Blah Blah. And then once we get them in for a no sweat intro, Austin loves doing no sweat intros cause he literally talks to these people for like an hour. I’m not even kidding you, but we, that’s when we just learn like their story, what they’re looking for and like truly like personally connect with them and let them know how we can help them. So that’s how, that’s what we sell and how we sell it.

Mateo:                                      10:54                       Tell us a little bit more about that No sweat intro process because it sounds like he takes a lot of time. What you just said is the discovery phase in the sales process. Really just learning more about them, figuring out what their challenges have been, what they’ve tried in the past, and how your program may be able to help them overcome that. So you know what, what goes on in those meetings.

Mary:                                         11:16                       Yeah. So I feel like just finding a way to like connect with them outside of the gym. So Austin is a vet, so when there’s that set come in, they instill, you have that connection, you know, or I used to be a cheerleading coach, so if there’s a mom that comes in and has daughter a daughter and cheerleading or something, just connecting on that level so that they can realize like we’re human too and we’re here to help them and we know the struggles of everyday life and this can fit into their personal life.

Mateo:                                      11:45                       Yeah, I think, I think what you’re hitting on is super critical. It’s building rapport. Yeah. A huge part of sales is just getting people to know and trust you and establishing that rapport and establishing that trust I think is, it sounds like something you both of you take a lot of time and effort to make sure you have that in place. You follow up with them whether it’s your automated sequence or you follow up with a phone call and book an appointment. What happens in between the point where the appointment is booked and then you ask for the sale? What happens in between that?

Mary:                                         12:22                       everyone who is scheduled to gets a call, why not right when they sign up and one the day before their appointment or pretty much anywhere between 24 hours to 12 hours before their appointment? Whenever we have time.

Mateo:                                      12:41                       You mean like you’re sending a via message via text or your access?

Mary:                                         12:44                       Yep. Sorry.

Mary:                                         12:45                       Yeah, a video message generally via text so they can just see like who they’re going to be meeting, what their personality is like and just kind of giving them like a hey, heads up. We’re real people and we have a schedule too. So please show up and let’s have a conversation.

Mateo:                                      13:02                       Awesome. So you send that the day, uh, you know, prior to and on the day of and then they walked to the front door. What happens when they walk through the front door?

Mary:                                         13:11                       A coach will be there to greet them and it’s really cool cause we just got a new building and we actually got a little no sweat intro room built in there. So yeah, so it has like our Inbody scan and some comfy chairs and it’s a little tucked away. So even if there’s like classes or something going on, they’ll be able to see that class but it won’t be distracting. So that’s where we hold all of our no sweat intros, which is great. And then usually the first thing we always ask them is why are they here and what are their goals? I’m just getting kind of directly to the point in that creates a conversation that we can have with them based on, you know, what made them like what made them click the sign up. Now, that’s what we want to know cause that’s really going to take focus of what we’re going to talk about next.

Mateo:                                      13:56                       Okay, cool. And so they come in, you’re doing a lot of discovery or trying to figure out what motivated them to come in, basically what solution they’re looking for. Right. How do you prescribe solutions?

Mary:                                         14:09                       So we’ll always like go over, we always start going over. So we have a nice sales binder and we have in our binder list. Yeah. So our first option listed is our gold option. You know, the most expensive, the personal training option with nutrition. So that’s the only the option they can see when we first opened the binder. So you know, sometimes people come in and you know they’re not going to want to do nutrition or you know, they’re not going to want to do personal training. So no matter what, we always just throw it out as an option because you, you never do know. So we throw that out as at an option and if you can, if we can tell they’re like, this is not for me. I cannot afford this, then we go down to our silver and then keep going down to eventually when we get to our bronze, which is just classes and power hour nutrition. So we use that binder as a base. But obviously when we’re doing the no sweat intro, we can kind of feel out what we think would be best for them. You know, if they have a tight schedule. Sometimes personal training sessions are best because we can fit them in whenever and they don’t have to stick to class times and just kind of recommending those options to them and always including how it would benefit them.

Mateo:                                      15:15                       Awesome. And let’s take a, let’s take a step back in the process. You manage all of the social media and the paid advertising. So what is your process when you’re, when you’re refreshing a campaign or building a campaign, how often do you go in and, and try a new piece of creative, you know, how often are you going in tweaking things and, and you know, walk us through how you build those campaigns.

Mary:                                         15:40                       Um, so I feel like when we first started this, I was kind of in the mindset of like things need to be changed every two to three months. But since then I’ve learned like if it’s working, just leave it. Like right now we’re not doing like skyrocketing No Sweat Intros like five a day, but we’re, we have a consistent outcome from our ads and we are seeing a pretty good front end revenue. So I haven’t made any changes to our ads in probably like three or four months because they’ve been doing well and just want to keep, keep them going until we see like the cost per lead go up a little bit, then I might go in and make some changes. But one thing that’s really helped is like being a part of TwoBrain marketing group and seeing what has worked for other people. If we do get in a Rut, I can easily go in and find a stock image that has worked for for somebody else. And usually sometimes it’s just as easy as that changing one word in the copy or changing the stock image. In getting examples from other gyms and all of a sudden we’re right back up where we need to be.

Mateo:                                      16:45                       I think that’s such a good point that you know people if CRMs go up a little bit or their cost per click creeps up or you know, if, if they see the amount of bookings just you know, slow down. A lot of times I’ll see people try a whole new thing. They’ll rip the whole thing apart and try something brand new. But really I think you make a good point. Sometimes it’s just taking one variable at a time and looking, okay let’s just try a different image, leave everything the same and start there or a different video and start there and then you know the next thing, okay now we have an image that we think is working well. Let’s try two different pieces of written creative and see how that, how that works. And it’s just one small variable at a time. Cause if he changed the whole thing, it’s hard to know what was the, the x factor for sure.

Mary:                                         17:34                       For sure. And I think like, like I mentioned before how there’s those people that it takes like five to 10 times to see the ad. You want to keep something semi consistent so they know that this is the same place and the same six week challenge.

Mateo:                                      17:47                       That’s a great point. Do you anything to reengage people who opt in,, I imagine your, since you’ve been running ads for a year, can you tell us a little about that? Got growing list of people who inquire maybe the optin but don’t book an intro. Maybe they don’t buy. Do you guys do anything with that list of people who have inquired and are still kind of lurking?

Mary:                                         18:10                       Yeah, so recently probably not that recent anymore. Like a few months ago we implemented uplaunch into our No Sweat Intro process. So it’s been like a huge lifesaver because I was like manually texting these, all of these leads we are getting through clickfunnels and it was just taking up so much time. But what their phone number and or email will be go from click funnels to our uplaunch campaign and they will, we have like a whole six week campaign and they’ll receive emails and texts. And then also we have all of their contact information stored. So every time we have like a special event, like a wine and WOD or a community workout, we can like reach out to those people from a year ago and be like, Hey, we noticed you are interested. Come try a free workout. Rare opportunity. Like this is your chance. So those are the couple of ways we are reconnecting with older leads.

Mateo:                                      19:02                       And have you found like you’ve been able to even, I mean I’ve found even selling one is worth it, like an email blast for sure. Getting one sale is definitely worth it.

Mary:                                         19:12                       Yep. And sometimes that will like an email blast takes what like honestly, 20 to 30 minutes and then getting that one client out of it is definitely worth it.

Mateo:                                      19:23                       Amazing. So you know, it sounds like you said you went to you, you had moved to a new space.

Mary:                                         19:29                       Yeah. So we were kind of on the outskirts of Oshkosh, you know, I’m like a industrial building and we bought our own free standing building and we’re downtown Oshkosh, which is really awesome because a lot more foot traffic. We’re like a block away from the farmer’s market, which is going to be super awesome during summers. So we’re hoping that will help boost some interest.

Mateo:                                      19:52                       Amazing. It sounds like you guys have been doing really great, you’re growing like crazy. You’ve moved to an upgraded to a new space and you know, you’ve, you’ve been able to essentially double your money using paid advertising. What do you think has been the key to your success so far and Austin success and the gym success in the business access? What do think has been the key?

Mary:                                         20:11                       Yeah, so I really think it’s just been like staying consistent. Like you could easily start these ads and if you’re not keeping up of leads, like you’re just going to in the long run kind of be wasting your money. Um, so it’s not just the Facebook advertising, it’s the click funnel and the Uplaunch. It’s kind of the whole process of how you’re getting these leads and how you’re staying connected with them and treating them when they show interest in your business. So I think it’s just been staying consistent with the whole process and finding ways to continue to improve it as well and just really staying in touch with those and showing interest in them. So hopefully they’ll show be more interested in US someday.

Mateo:                                      20:52                       Well, and probably the service too, right? Nothing works unless your service is good. So yeah, you keep the quality of your, that you have a front end offer, right? Your front end offer is a six week introductory program. How do you monitor quality control and make sure people are loving the service there? They’re seeing results. How do you guys do that?

Mary:                                         21:12                       We as coaches, we really try and stay connected to the people going through their six week challenge. You know, they have their five OnRamp personal training sessions. So that right there is a really good jumpstart into one on one time with the coach where the coach can start really pounding them with accountability. Ah, well it’s coming to the gym and nutrition from there they go into group classes and it’s just kind of keeping an eye on them and you know, just creating that conversation like how were you feeling, what are you eating, how are you sleeping? And just showing them like wow, this is not like a normal Globo gym. Like someone is here. Like actually caring about my lifestyle and that’s awesome. And then again, we have campaigns through uplaunch for every person going through our six week challenge. So not only in the gym are they seeing coaches, but they’re getting emails, asking them how they’re feeling, if they have any questions, you know, anything along those lines.

Mateo:                                      22:02                       When you asked those questions, checking in with them. Is there a formal setting? Do you guys have formal goal setting sessions during that process or after?

Mary:                                         22:11                       We do not have goal setting sessions implemented into the six weeks. Right now. We do offer goal setting sessions for any of our members to schedule, but we actually don’t have anything and boom, I did right now. I mean we do have like, they schedule a time to come in and take their last Inbody scan and I feel like that always just kind of naturally turns into like a goal-setting session.

Mateo:                                      22:35                       Yeah.

Mary:                                         22:36                       Yeah. So that that happens and you know, that’s always good too because we can kind of tell them like, well, here’s why you saw awesome results. Here’s maybe why you didn’t see the results we’re looking for. Usually, you know, because of nutrition or outside stress. But yeah, so that just having awesome coaches who can keep up with the six-week people and like, of course I have to say our community is so great too and always welcoming to newer people and helping them so that, that helps us.

Mateo:                                      23:05                       Awesome. Well thanks so much for hopping on and walking us through your, your system, how you check up on your ads and how you follow up with your leads and how you sell. If people want to talk with you more or just hang out or drop in when they’re going to the games. Yeah. How do they

Mary:                                         23:24                       Um, I am on Instagram. I think my handle is just Mary Weeder, M. A. R. Y. W. E. I. D. E. R. Otherwise you can check out crossfit Oshkosh. That Instagram or Facebook or Instagram is crossfit underscore oshkosh so you can find us there.

Mateo:                                      23:41                       Awesome. Thanks Mary. Thank you.

Chris:                                         23:44                       Hey everyone. Chris Cooper here and really thrilled to see you this year in June in Chicago at the 2019 TwoBrain summit. Every year we have two separate speaking tracks: one for you, the business owner, and there’s one for coaches that will help them make better, longer, more meaningful careers under the umbrella of your business. This year we’ve got some pretty amazing topics like the client success manager, how to change your life, organizational culture or the business owner’s life cycle, how to have breaks, how to have vacations, how to help your marriage survive, owning a business and motivation and leadership. How to convert more clients, how to create a GM position that runs your gym for you and leaves you free to grow your business. How to start a business owner’s group in your community and more. The Point here is to do the right thing that will help gym owners create better businesses that will last them for the long term, get them to tinker phase, help them be more successful, create meaningful careers with their coaches and give their clients a meaningful path to longterm health. We only do one big seminar every year and that’s the TwoBrain summit and the reason that we do that is because a big part of the benefit is getting the TwoBrain community together and and welcoming strangers into our midst and showing them how amazing gym ownership really can be. We’ll have a link to theTwoBrain summit including a full list of all speakers and topics on both the owners and the coaches side in the show notes. I really hope to see you there.

Mary:                                         25:12                       As always, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. We greatly appreciate you and everyone that has subscribed to us. If you haven’t done that, please make sure you do drop a like to that episode. Share with a friend and if you haven’t already, please write us a review and rate us on how what you think. If you hated it, let us know if you loved it, even better. See you guys later.


This is our NEW podcast, Two-Brain Marketing, where we’ll focus on sales and digital marketing. Your host is Mateo Lopez!

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Episode 163: Two-Brain Media

Episode 163: Two-Brain Media

On this episode, we are joined by Mike Warkentin. Mike is the owner of CrossFit 204 in Winnipeg, Manitoba, and the new co-owner of Two-Brain Media. Mike has been involved in sports for his entire life. After eight years in the media industry, he was able to make his hobby into a career by becoming the managing editor of the CrossFit Journal. When he left the Journal, Mike founded Two-Brain Media with Chris Cooper. 

Be on the lookout for Chris’ new book coming out on May 7: Founder, Farmer, Tinker, Thief!


Don’t Forget about the 2019 Two-Brain Summit, June 8-9 in Chicago! This year we have some amazing topics and guests for both yourself and your coaches. Click here to register and sign up now!




If You Can Smile, You Can Do CrossFit – Video



4:06 – Introduction to Two-Brain Media and Mike Warkentin

7:49 – Mike’s experience working at the CrossFit Journal

11:15 – Opening a gym while still working for the CrossFit Journal

18:20 – The launch of Two-Brain Media

27:18 – The ways that Two-Brain Media will be helping gym owners in the future

32:20 – The different types of content and avenues that Two-Brain Media can offer

36:11 – Creating relatable content for your target audience

40:06 – Contacting Mike to book a consultation call

Announcer:                            00:02                       Welcome everyone to Two-Brain radio. It is our mission at Two-Brain to provide 1 million entrepreneurs the freedom to live the life that they choose. Join us every week as we discovered the very best practices to achieve perfect day and move you closer to wealth.

Chris:                                         00:26                       Everybody hates their insurance company until they need their insurance company. My insurance recommendation is Vaughn Vernon of Affiliate Guard. Before I get into this story, I want to make it clear here that I don’t get any kickback for recommending Vaughn, but I’ve done it so many times. Whenever anybody online asks a question about insurance companies, I always say affiliate guard. Here’s why. Years ago when we affiliated with crossfit, my insurance company dumped me, citing, quote unquote tractor pulls that we were going to be doing, whatever the hell that is. I’ve never pulled a tractor in my life. Um, I’ve driven lots of tractors and I can tell you, I don’t think I could pull one if I wanted to. But that’s besides the point. At that time, the person who swooped in and saved crossfit gyms in Canada was Joanne Legal. And if you’re in Canada, I recommend talking to her period.

Chris:                                         01:15                       You don’t have to talk to her first. You don’t have to talk to her last. Just talk to her period. If you’re in the states though, I recommend affiliate guard because the program that I get through Joanne and Canada is really, really awesome and all inclusive. Joanne’s personality though is what keeps me with their company in the states. Affiliate guard is run by Vaughn Vernon, a massive personality, a crossfitter, a Jujitsu guy. He drives dirt bikes, he has good looking kids, all that stuff and his policy is the best. It’s really, really tough to tell when you’re reading your policy if the benefits are the same as someone else’s because they obscure stuff on purpose. It’s just like taxes. However, when I’m looking at my policy, I ask myself, well, that guy get up in the middle of the night and helped me out and this weekend was a great example of Vaughn’s personality.

Chris:                                         02:07                       One of my friends and clients down in Florida had their garage door smashed open, by a Mustang that was doing donuts in the parking lot and they texted me at 6:00 AM on a Sunday and I wanted to help so I texted Vaughn, he’s two hours behind me and he responded right away. Your insurance company is not going to do that. As I said at the start of this, everybody hates their insurance company until they need insurance and when you do need insurance, you want them to answer the damn phone on a Sunday morning and you want to talk to the head man and you just want to know everything’s going to be okay with affiliate guard.

Mike:                                          02:43                       Hey everyone, Chris Cooper here, I’m really thrilled to see you this year in June in Chicago at the 2019 Two-Brain Summit. Every year we have two separate speaking tracks is one for you, the business owner and there’s one for coaches that will help them make better, longer, more meaningful under your umbrella of your business. This year we’ve got some pretty amazing topics like the client success manager, how to change your life organizational culture or the business owner’s life cycle, how to have breaks, how to have vacations, how to help your marriage survive. Owning a business, motivation and leadership. How to convert more clients, how to create a GM position that runs your gym for you and leaves you free to grow your business. How to start a business owner’s group in your community. And more. The point here is to do the right thing that will help gym owners create better businesses that will last them for the long term. Get them to tinker phase, help them be more successful, create meaningful careers for their coaches and give their clients a meaningful path to longterm health. We only do one big seminar every year and that’s the Two-Brain Summit and the reason that we do that is because a big part of the benefit is getting the Two-Brain community together and and welcoming strangers into our midst and showing them how amazing gym ownership really can be. We’ll have a link to the Two-Brain summit, including a full list of all speakers and topics on both the owners and the coaches side in the show notes. I really hope to see you there.

Greg:                                          04:06                       All right. I’m here with another fantastic guest. Mike Warkentin. He has come on board with us for Two-Brain Media. So welcome.

Mike:                                          04:15                       Thanks for having me Greg. I appreciate it.

Greg:                                          04:17                       Happy to. So let’s kind of, people don’t know you too well. Let’s kind of give them a little bit of synopsis about you and where you came from and what you’ve been up to and then we’ll kind of go into the whole Two-Brain media side and what were, what are in the plans for the future?

Mike:                                          04:33                       Sure thing. I guess a, I’ve been in media for about 20 years and I was that guy who saw the, the local paper and always wanted to be in it. And now when I got into university, I was playing volleyball there and I just submitted an article to the sports section and all of a sudden I became the sports editor and that kind of was a slippery slope that sucked me into a street magazines where I started just doing bar listings for, you know, club gigs for bands, delivering papers, scraping stickers off newspaper boxes and things like that. And then I ended up being the assistant editor of a street mag that led into a brief career in radio. And then at the end of that, I wasn’t very good at writing radio commercials and I needed to get out. So I decided to be a fitness writer.

Mike:                                          05:15                       I went to San Diego to take the crossfit level one certificate course. Uh, I met some of the people involved with the crossfit journal and I got sucked into the crossfit journal for the next 10 years after that. And along the way, I opened crossfit 204. We started that, we started doing a boot camp in 2009. And then, uh, in 2010, we became an official affiliate. And then in 2011, we got our actual, our own building that we are still run out of now. So it’s been about 20 years media and about, 10 years in fitness as well now. I’m sorry. Pardon me, 20 years in media and 10 years in, in crossfit.

Greg:                                          05:49                       Gotcha. Now with you said that you wanted to write fitness articles. Was it due to your, your fitness background and volleyball and playing for university or was there some kind of shift, uh, in your life? I know a lot of people, especially, I mean, you know, the crossfit stories better, better than I do. I bet. Uh, at this point of somebody comes in there are type II diabetic, they lose all this weight and now they want to be a crossfit coach and they go on to opening their own gym or something else along the fitness industry. So what was kind of that change or what was something that happened that, uh, that made you want to start writing fitness articles?

Mike:                                          06:23                       Well, I was good enough to make the university volleyball team, but I wasn’t good enough to start. So I didn’t get on the court very often. So I realized that, well my friends were, you know, getting the tar kicked out of them during the games. I was just standing there most of the time. So I got into a, I started working out and so I would work out pretty hard before games cause I knew I wasn’t ever going to play. Uh, and I really got into fitness and one of the years there was a guy on the team that really loved working out. So I would meet him in the weight room every day at like 10 o’clock and every once in a while we’d skip a class or two and we would just work out. And I got really addicted to that and it became a passion of mine.

Mike:                                          06:57                       After I stopped playing volleyball, I left university and it just became almost the focus of my day. And so when I got further along, I started thinking about what would be a better career than writing radio commercials. And I thought, man, I don’t know if there’s anyone out there who can really, really write about fitness. And there were certainly were, you know, Muscle & Fitness and things like that. But I wanted to really become the guy who knew, who could write about fitness and my first step, and that was I started doing the NSCA CSCS course. I never finished that, but I did all the studying for it and I instead went to crossfit level one. I went to San Diego, I took the course and I was just so infatuated with that. And you know the story, you get to start your new trend and all of a sudden the rest is history. And so that happened for me and I got the chance. Then I wrote an article about that and I submitted it to the crossfit journal. And then, uh, there was an opportunity to work for the crossfit journal. So I ended up being the fitness writer that I wanted it to be, but I didn’t know it’d be about crossfit when I made that choice.

Greg:                                          07:48                       Gotcha. Now you’ve worked, I mean, you worked for Crossfit, crossfit journal for a very long time. And what, I mean, what was, what was it like being able, did you have your own kind of choice of what you wanted to write about or, I’ve never, I’ve never been able to interview anyone that has worked for the journal. Of course. Uh, Chris has, but I’ve never asked him that question. And so I was, I was always curious, are you able to do, do you write the articles the way you want to or is there like, Hey, uh, let’s, let’s write on this person. We just found out on social media, they lost 200 pounds or something like that.

Mike:                                          08:20                       Yeah, it’s a really collaborative process and it evolved over the years. When I started, it was a very small publication and we, you know, I would sit there waiting for the submissions account for someone to send something in, you know, and it was like, wow, somebody sent something in and you check. And there would be a great story from wherever, a gym, anywhere, you know, there’s so many amazing crossfit stories. And as we slowly started to get going, I would write more articles and then we developed some writers, regular writers who we could assign things to. Uh, and then we eventually, we went from almost 90% submissions to almost 90% assigned articles. And those assigned articles could be anything from, you know, there was a collaborative process between a lot of different people. It’s like, oh, I heard about this person.

Mike:                                          09:01                       This would be a great story. Or an affiliate owner would contact us about a great story. Or, you know, I remember being in one of the crossfit tour events in Texas and bumping into a guy behind me in the brisket line, uh, named Rob Davis told me an incredible story about how his crossfit journey started. And I was like, wow, we need to write about that. So it was, you know, a lot of serendipity and then also a careful plan, uh, togenerate things that would support, the topics that we wanted to cover at the time, which could be anything from, you know, obviously training and affiliation issues to a specific initiatives by the company. And so many good ones like, you know, like Hope in Africa for example. It was a good one that I really enjoyed.

Greg:                                          09:37                       Oh yeah. Yeah, I remember, I mean, I remember hearing many, many stories from not only Chris,, but then one of our mentors on the team Oskar, and, and kind of how he found his daughter, uh, adopting his daughter and kind of a meeting everyone long time ago and then kind of coming back, which was an amazing story and I can’t wait to, for it to be shared on the podcast here.

Mike:                                          09:59                       Awesome. What was it, was, he contacted me about that and it, the coolest thing about this, this whole media thing was that he, he contacted me a little while ago and sent the message of saying like when I went to Africa, I downloaded the crossfit journal and started reading this stuff and he said it was life changing. And he ended up getting on Level one seminar staff and opening a gym and finding a daughter. And it was just this fascinating story that really kind of showed me the power of media. And that’s why I’m so passionate about it is that kind of connection is just such a cool thing that you never saw coming. But it happens.

Greg:                                          10:27                       Yeah, no, completely. I think when I first found the, the crossfit journal was actually on my first deployment to Afghanistan. Uh, we had, we had our own camp within, within one of the bases and there somebody had pre printed off . I’m guessing they, I mean we had Internet access of course, but they, they printed off probably every article in the crossfit journal that was around during those times. So it was about 2010, which was still a ton and ton of articles. But that’s how I originally found the crossfit journal and started looking at it and reading about it and seeing the different things that were getting posted. So it’s kind of kind of that same journey, just, uh, not, not the same way Oskar did with, uh, the way he went, which was again, I can’t wait to have his, uh, his episode on here cause it’s, it’s, it really is amazing and awesome. Awesome journey and a story of his, yeah, he’s a neat guy. Now you said that, I mean, you were, you were, were, you were working for the crossfit journal and you opened your own gym. What made you think of wanting to do that? I mean, of course you’re in the fitness industry, you’re writing about it all the time. But what was kind of the catalyst to say, Hey, you know what? We need to open up our own gym as well as still writing about this stuff.

Mike:                                          11:33                       Yeah. I’ve always been like a sports coach. So growing up, I was always coaching volleyball and running summer camps and things like that. So coaching was really, really natural. And then once you take the level one certificate, of course it’s all you can do to stop yourself from annoying every person, you know, with a broomstick and teaching them how to dead lift, right? Like you just, it just happens like that. So it, you know, at the time, quit that radio job in, uh, I was working actually literally handing out towels for minimum wage at a, at a global gym. And the manager there was kind enough to allow me to use the space twice a week to, uh, to run a boot camp. So we just blew out all the benches, moved them aside, and then, you know, we kind of hustled the bodybuilders over to the side and we started doing crossfit stuff and I would drive up there twice a week through the park with kettle bells rolling around, like, you know, cannon balls in the trunk of My car, you know, the sound.

Mike:                                          12:19                       Right. And we, so we did that and I still remember that we, I think I charged people 7.50 a class or something like that and we’d do it twice a week. And I slowly realized that this wasn’t quite crossfit because I only had a couple of barbells. We couldn’t drop things, we couldn’t go heavy, didn’t have a dedicated space and people were starting to be really into it. So we had a growing number of people bursting at the seams and I said, I think it’s time, it’s time to take a jump. And we, I was honored, I was actually talking to crossFit founder Greg Glassman one time and I told him about this and he’s like, well, are you an affiliate? And I said, well, no. He says, well, just do that. It was such an obvious thing to do that I needed that the CrossFit founder to tell me. So we did it, we became an affiliate and then we started looking for a space and that was a big jump, but I kind of did the math in a city of, I think it’s 750,000 we have here in Winnipeg. There was one other gym or two at the time. One was shutting down. So basically one, there was a huge opportunity because I knew that people in a city like this needed more than one crossfit gym. So we opened it and the rest is history, as they say.

Greg:                                          13:18                       Yeah, exactly. I mean that’s, I, that’s definitely a, it’s funny that you, uh, had to have that conversation with, with the founder to then realize that, yeah, you know what? That is a good idea. I should do that.

Mike:                                          13:31                       Oh, it’s funny. He said it and I was like, I was ashamed. I’m like, I don’t know why I haven’t affiliated this sooner.

Greg:                                          13:37                       Exactly. But it’s only obvious once it, once it gets presented to you. So you had that, I mean, you were, you started off in university, started writing, then you went to the, to the radio. Then from there started writing for the crossfit journal and throughout this process, opening a gym. Did they ever, did you ever have any kind of time restraints or time restrictions with, with running a gym? I mean, opening a gym is not easy. I mean there’s, there’s a lots of lots of, of gym owner that will tell you it is not easy. And my favorite phrase now, and I forget who I got it from and I’d love to give credit, so if anybody out there is listening to this, but the easiest way to get unfit is to open a crossfit gym because the processes and the structures and everything you need to put in place is definitely something that is not easy or for the feint of heart. So what was that like with still writing and I can only imagine, I mean your workload is probably getting more and more with the Journal and opening a gym and trying to figure out these systems. Uh, how did, how were you able to make it through that at that time?

Mike:                                          14:36                       No, it was, it was, it was a tough one. I’m like, we, when we started, of course your business plan is we’ll just coach every class so we’ll have no wages. Right? You probably, you probably know that one. And so we did that and it works like for a while you’re so you’re so fired up and passionate that you can do it. And I remember days where I would work, you know, nine or 10 hours on the journal and then we would coach all evening then wake up the next morning and coach the 6:00 AM class. And you know, we did that for a while, but man, it started to, it started to wear pretty quickly. Uh, so we, you know, my wife luckily was, she was doing hairstyling at the time, but she was an excellent coach and a really good athlete. So we got her up to speed and she became the gym manager.

Mike:                                          15:13                       And so that allowed me to step back a little bit and just recover. And you know, the crossfit journal job was my main focus. The gym was a secondary thing. You’ll undersatnd this as a Two-Brain business mentor. I wanted it to be a hobby. And My, my catch line was, it’s a hobby. I don’t need it to make money. I more than 100% accomplished that goal. And then I got to 2015 and I looked, I’m like, wow, this is not, this is not the most sound business venture I’ve ever seen on paper. And Luckily I had a, I had worked with Chris Cooper at the crossfit journal for probably 10 years. I think I edited the first article of his in 2009, if I’m not mistaken. And then Chris, he worked, uh, worked with us for a year and you’re even more than a year, but we’d been in contact throughout the whole time, just, you know, learning and talking and just being friends basically.

Mike:                                          16:01                       Uh, and he had started the Two-Brain business. And so we started doing the incubator. And I remember I’d get up at 5:00 AM every day and I would do two hours in the incubator and realized that I had not set this gym up for success. I had, I had not priced things properly. I hadn’t done staff development properly. I hadn’t created roles, responsibilities, and I certainly hadn’t created a plan to replace myself. I got very lucky that my wife was intelligent and she learned fast enough to pick up all the stuff that I just pushed out her. But I didn’t help her a whole lot. And so we went through the incubator. We fixed things, we change things, we got the gym on solid footing. Uh, and you know, I can’t say enough to, to Chris and the two brain mentors who helped us do that because they really, they saved the gym and then now the gym is in a good spot and is growing and has much better. But it wasn’t on that path until I started working with, with Two-Brain business. I just didn’t know what I was doing.

Greg:                                          16:51                       And I think that’s the story now that I jump on the free help calls and, and do plenty of those, which I love. I love doing those because I love hearing the stories of where gyms are at and what they’ve accomplished or what they need help with. But I hear that story way too often of of, and that’s why I laughed earlier, is they set up the gym and they don’t need it to make money is what they say. And they will teach all the classes so they don’t have to do payroll. And they realized that becomes a slippery slope and now they can’t grow the way they want it to. So it changes.

Mike:                                          17:19                       You can’t afford to replace equipment and you, you know, you’re so exhausted and your service is starting to slip and you know all, you’ve seen it all. It’s very, that’s why I’m so thrilled that there is, you know, a mentorship program like this out there that can help people. And you know, Chris has said he’s made more mistakes than anybody else. And I don’t know if that’s true or not, but you know, the combined, the combined mistakes in our group are so powerful because it now helps everyone else figure out how to stop doing those things. And it’s really cool to see gym owners now coming to Two-Brain first and taking the incubator and figured out to set up a gym properly and avoiding all the mistakes that you know you and I made.

Greg:                                          17:53                       Exactly, exactly. And, and getting people on the right track is, is always our main focus. So if anyone is out there, this is a, this is a time call for action, make sure that you guys are jumping on and book in that free call if you guys have questions or have issues within your gym and what you guys are trying to do or be any business, uh, in that matter because we have started to kind of branch out and help a more service based businesses, not just, uh, not just gyms. So let’s kind of jump into now that you guys, we’ve created this new thing, uh, which is Two-Brain Media and let’s kind of talk about what your role is within Two-Brain media and kind of what you see as, as, as things that we can start accomplishing and opportunities that we can start providing to gym owners, to business owners, to anybody out there that a is looking for them.

Mike:                                          18:40                       Yeah, like I said, I’ve been in media for 20 years and it’s always been a passion of why. Like I’ve always felt the need to, to just write and create things, whether it was just, you know, writing quotes on a white board in the back of a shipping and receiving warehouse when I was, you know, 19, like it’s just, I’ve always wanted to create stuff. And I know Chris has a number of, I mean he’s got so many balls in the air and so many things that he’s doing, but he’s always been a creator as well. So He’s been very passionate about, you know, writing. And that’s how we met was he wrote an article for the crossfit journal. So just two guys who were really passionate about media, and I love the idea of, you know, gyms first but entrepreneurs second, every business has a story and we talked about that on the two brain business or Two-Brain media website.

Mike:                                          19:22                       Every business, especially a small business has a story. And we want to help people tell that story so that they can connect with their clients. And I’m inspired when I look around at some of the amazing media that our, our gyms are creating and the two brain business family is creating. It’s, it’s really cool. We have this unbelievable pile of people in our facilities that have all these amazing stories and there are just no end of great stories. How people accomplish the goals, found fitness, changed their lives, weight loss, confidence, all this stuff. And that applies not just to gyms but other businesses as well. There’s amazing stories in there and our people are becoming more and more media savvy. So we’ve got, you know, back in the day, TV studios and print presses and all this stuff. Now with your cell phone, you have a media empire literally in your pocket and you can do amazing stuff just with a cell phone. And we’ve got all these other options from podcasts, blogs to videos to Instagram to, you know, live broadcasts. It’s just incredible. So we, we really wanted to start Two-Brain media to help our community figure out how they can leverage the stories they have either with professional media has done for them or media that they do well themselves. And so we’re trying to educate and connect people to providers when they need it.

Greg:                                          20:33                       In your line of work, I mean you’ve, you’ve written articles, you’ve, you’ve been on the radio, you’ve created videos. What have you seen as something that is your, I mean, let’s, let’s say biggest bang for your buck. What do you think the biggest thing that a gym owner can do or a business owner can do right now to leverage the media that they currently have? Like you said, you have a phone in your pocket. This technology wasn’t around to a 10, 15, 20 years ago now and you’d have to pay so much more for production studio if you want to do video or even getting your blogs like a blog post, uh, that a lot of people would actually start reading. Um, it was a lot harder back then. It took a lot more money. So what do you feel like the biggest advantage people could take today to start leveraging their media within their gym or within the business?

Mike:                                          21:18                       This came up actually a lot of, and a lot of the calls that I did over the last 10 days with, with business owners, uh, it’s, it’s, it just a distribution plan for whatever piece of content you create. You’ve invested your time in that content, whether it’s a blog, a podcast, a video, whatever, even a photo for Instagram. I find that a lot of people post things in one spot or do one thing and then kind of forget about it. But really a lot of these pieces of content can be used in like seven or eight different ways. And I’ll give you a very good example would be uh, my wife runs a company called 204 Lifestyle, which is our nutrition and lifestyle business that is a separate from the crossfit side. So she’ll, she’ll, she loves to cook. So we’re doing lots of cooking videos and lots of things.

Mike:                                          21:57                       So at the end of her, whenever we get a meal, we take a plate and we take a picture from the top and we take a picture from the side and we take a picture of, that’s a closeup that’s really three posts and I wouldn’t put them up in the same day obviously, but four weeks apart, the protein muffin from the top four weeks apart, protein muffin from the side close up of the protein muffin that can then be paired with a video or a short clip of the preparation or someone eating the muffin that can go on Instagram, that can go on Facebook. The recipe can go on the blog, it can be sent out to a mailing list and you see all these different ways that for one investment in time and content, we can use it a ton of different ways. And so one of the things that I’ve talked to people about as a distribution plan so they can maximize the reach of these things and we’re going to put something together where people can can get that from Two-Brain media so they can figure out how to maximize their content.

Mike:                                          22:44                       But the piece of advice I give you now is if you get things up on social media, know that social media is a great place to funnel things to your website. And you should have that content and a lot of cases back on your website as well. Because Google doesn’t really index Instagram posts, for example. So if you put up this amazing Instagram post or write all this stuff and it’s a great video, no one’s scrolls down 15 times to find it, eventually that post should be recreated somewhere, whether it’s on YouTube or on your website so that Google can find it. And then you can still get the benefits of having that great piece of content. So I’d say get more content, get content out in more places to be as creative as you can.

Greg:                                          23:20                       Excellent. No, I full fully agree with that cause I feel like, I mean, and I’ve, I’ve made the same mistake. I mean I always have no problem being transparent, whether I’m on a call with somebody or even on here, uh, with the mistakes that I’ve made. But I think that’s something that we, uh, we lack in our, our gym is not, not producing enough content, but also not spreading that content out to multiple media sources and constantly trying to provide a more expertise but really more knowledge to, to our members and to anyone that’s listening, that’s, uh, outside of that gym Community. But that is definitely something in Two-Brain and with Chris writing and being as creative as he has beenand stills continues to be, is a, producing as much content as possible to really help help anybody, help business owners, gym owners or anyone even thinking about starting a business or gym.

Mike:                                          24:08                       Yeah, I constantly nag my wife about this because she writes these amazing Instagram posts, but they only are seen for a day and then they vanish down in the feed and they’re never to be heard from again. So I’ve told her like literally write these posts in an email and just send it to me. Then do your Instagram posts like cut, cut and paste. And I’ll take that cut and paste it into a blog, put up a better picture for a website and you’ve got, you’ve just doubled your content. And then you can do that in a number of different ways by pumping pieces of it out on Facebook and other places. Then you’ve got all the other options, like you know, Twitter, Pinterest, linkedin, all of these other sites so you can really maximize content. A lot of people I think aren’t quite doing that yet. And the idea that I keep telling people is the only person that sees all of your content is you. No one else does because of whether it’s the reach that’s limited by Facebook or people are busy. No one sees all your content. So you should be pumping out in a number of different places. That’s why advertisers advertise so much because you, you don’t see how the commercial the first time,

Greg:                                          25:03                       which is that’s, it’s so funny that you say it in that way because I think I’ve had that same discussion with my coach that heads up our media side that she, she talks about, all the work to producing all this content and in my eyes I’m like, yeah, we are, but how much is actually being seen? So it’s funny you say that because I think there’s too many of us out there that, that assume, oh, we’re producing all this content. Like, yeah, but you’re right. They’re not seeing everything we’re producing no matter how much we are producing. So it’s always let’s, let’s constantly get in front of them over and over and over again in different media sources in streams to, to really get that idea across or that post across or whatever it is.

Mike:                                          25:38                       Well, let’s think about this too. When you know, how often are you watching a football game or whatever and you’re the TV commercials come up and you’re just annoyed with them, right? Like they don’t mean anything and you wish they weren’t there. You want to get back to football game. But then let’s say you’re having a toothache and a dentist commercial comes up, like all of a sudden you’re enraptured by this commercial that might take away your pain, right? That’s the way we’re kind of looking at it from media side is that, you know, you could create a squat video. I’ll pull up video and nutrition video, a transformation video, like all these different things and they not, they’re not going to connect with everyone, but they’re going to connect with someone. And so if you just put out one type of video, you’re missing a piece of the market. If you just put out this kind of blog, you’re missing a piece of the market. Some people like photography, some people like videos, some people like reading. You need to get all these different mediums flowing, and then you need to get different content in them. So that people can find them. Because as soon as you get the toothache, you want to find out about a dentist.

Greg:                                          26:31                       Very, very true. I think. I mean that’s why do people, why are people searching for our gyms in their local area? Because they probably, they had the problem and uh, they’ve realized it so now they’re ready to go and uh, trying to find you and, and locate you. But maybe six months ago they saw one of your posts on Facebook and they didn’t have that same problem. In their mind. They may have had it, but they didn’t, they didn’t think about it at that time. So that makes complete sense.

Mike:                                          26:54                       Yeah. I was so irritated for years about car commercials mostly cause I wrote them and I hated doing it. But all of a sudden when I was looking for a truck three years ago, I started paying attention to truck commercials and it all made sense to me all of a sudden.

Greg:                                          27:06                       Exactly. And that’s, that makes complete sense. So Two-Brain media, we are, I mean, like you said, getting that content out there that we’re doing a done for you and then also a, a teaching version of that kind of, could you kind of explain, uh, what, what opportunities you feel like we are our avenues that Two-Brain media is going to go down to help business owners and gym owners.

Mike:                                          27:26                       Yeah, right off the bat, the easiest, easiest aspect is, is the done for you stuff. Meaning I have a pretty good network of people who are quite talented. It can do exactly what someone needs. So as a, for instance, I talked to a gym owner this morning who said, you know, I’d really, I like writing but it’s not, I would like to get some, some of what Chris had wrote in his content email about lighthouses. I’d like to get some lighthouse content, meaning those great big standout pieces that, you know, like our beacon across the Internet that pull people in and tougher to write. And I have people that can crank that out. So that’s a service that we’re looking at rolling out very soon. Uh, just so people can get that content and done for them. Some people have the skill to do it. Like for example, you know, a guy like Chris Cooper can write that stuff.

Mike:                                          28:09                       Other people can’t and we can get that done for them. We have the same aspects on the video end. Another common theme that we found with people is that people know that video is important and now Facebook is prioritizing video over just about everything else right now, but how many of us can, can do video, video editing? Some of us can, but some gym owners would be much better served hiring a video editor or hiring a videographer so they can go back to doing the stuff that they’re good at. And that’s, you know, that’s a pretty clear Two-Brain business principle. It’s like, what are you good at and what’s a good investment of your time? For me, blogging is a good investment of my time. Fixing a door at the gym, which I’ve tried to do is not a good investment of my time. I should hire someone for that, you know, and I’ve wasted. I remember talking to Chris on one of the last mentor calls I did with Chris. I said, man, I just wasted eight hours and $200 buying tools to try and pull a key out of a door. He’s like, just call a locksmith. Just call a locksmith dude, you know? And I did it and it costs me $30.

Greg:                                          29:06                       Exactly. So that’s the, I think I do the same thing though too. I mean like video really interests me. So I started building, I’m using final cut pro and using premiere and, and trying to use these different software cause I just really loved creating videos. I mean ever since I was a kid, I think my fiance has told me numerous times that I’ve probably watched every movie every created. And it’s because I just love, I love video, I love how they do the different lightings and they do the different scenarios and how different lenses can change, how a story gets played out in the music. I mean if you take music out of a movie, completely changes that. So I think I’ve personally dived into that, that side of it to create content for the gym. But in the opposite or the other side of this is, is, is like what, what you said, Chris is really good at writing.

Greg:                                          29:49                       That is probably my worst subject. English has always been my worst subject in school and it would, would not benefit me to try to write blog posts because I just would not be good at them. But having a service like Two-Brain media where I could hire somebody to write a blog post for me and create that for me and for my clients, it would, it would make it so much easier on me and I’d much rather pay for that, uh, then waste the time and basically waste money because my time is worth something, uh, on creating that. And that’s really the test. Like if you, if you say, if I said to you, okay, like Greg, I need, I need a photo of this, and you’re like, man, I’d like to learn how to take that photo, then you should learn how to take that photo.

Greg:                                          30:26                       But if it’s like, God, I just, then you should pay someone to take the photo for you and go on to stuff that you like. And that’s kind of the options that we’re, we’re helping people with is finding, finding people who can do stuff for them. And these are people that are deeply ingrained in the fitness community and entrepreneur community so that they’re going to be very in touch with, with gyms first of all, but also just business owners and small businesses because the principles as you know, transfer over really well. And then the other side of it, we have people who are very passionate about media and want, want to learn how to do lots of that stuff. And so we’re trying to put together those ideas of, like you said, I want to get better at video editing. Okay. How do we teach someone how to do that?

Greg:                                          31:04                       So there might be a situation, uh, I would hope to develop almost a media incubator where we can set up a plan that takes someone who’s interested, take them from say a D level to a solid B just with some basic technical knowledge and a little bit of instruction, much like you do in the incubator where it’s like we’re taking you from wherever you’re at to a greatly increased place. And then when you get to that growth phase, that’s where you start looking at like really wrapping things up and bringing in professionals for certain things. You know in that growth phase, you’re not doing everything yourself, you’re delegating and hiring a lot. I think now, now that I, I picture a, I’m putting a picture of course in my head of this and that makes complete sense. Especially if someone is interested in writing, writing more blog posts or if they have it, we could have another stream for creating podcast or another stream for creating videos and giving them the ability, like you said, going, going from, hey, I don’t really know a whole lot to at least knowing almost to where, where the professionals are at without having to go and buy a $25,000 camera or even a $1,200 camera because I’ve made that mistake before.

Greg:                                          32:09                       And, and being able to realize, hey, you don’t really need all of that, but hey, this is how you do it. Here’s some templates, here’s all this information and let’s walk you step by step to keep you accountable to creating this content with, with all of this, what, what is the different types of content, or better yet, what are the different types of, of avenues that we’re going to have for these gym owners or business owners that are wanting to get this content and, and learn. And like you said, having kind of like an incubation on how to teach them how to do these things. What do you see the future of Two-Brain to brain media doing for these gym owners or providing the content for these gym owners?

Mike:                                          32:46                       Well, I’d like to, the first thing I’d like to be able to do is, is, and we’re, we’re very close to that already, is just being able to connect gym owners to highly skilled professionals who can get stuff done for them really quickly and properly. And you know, that’s, that’s actually kind of the easy one because that network does exist and we’re just slowly making those connections now as we start. The longer term thing is that education component and that’s where we start looking at, uh, like a broad kind of media education where it’s just like the simple stuff from, you know, how do I, how do I focus a camera properly? No, just little stuff like that, that makes a huge difference. And how do we take, you know, how do we take a picture and make it three times better without doing anything different with equipment?

Mike:                                          33:24                       And that’s one of the things that I look at. Uh, when I look through gyms Instagram accounts, you could improve a lot of the photography pretty quickly with just some really basic stuff. And I’d like to be able to share that with people. We do some of that on our free, it’s called learn to connect on the Two-Brain media site . So there’s one article in there that says, you know, the one thing that will help your pictures be better immediately. And we’re talking about food pictures in that case, but that sort of, that component could be part of a media incubator. And then after that it becomes more of a tailored, you know, maybe even a mentorship education component where it’s like, Greg, I want to know how to do a podcast properly. How would I do that? And that’s where you step in and start saying, okay, look, here’s how we’re going to set up your podcast. You need this software, you need this hardware and here’s how you script the thing out so that you know you don’t have dead air and you don’t have Mike’s landline ringing in the background as might have happened earlier,

Greg:                                          34:15                       which nobody on here will hear, but we will definitely make sure we edit that out. But yes, the technical, yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, that makes complete sense though. It’s I think a, that’s how I’ve always learned. I mean I, I have a camera that has, that is decently expensive. I’d say $1200- $1,500 camera with lenses, but I don’t know how to take photos on it. I’ve always done video and if you listen to, if you talk to people that have done just, uh, the photography side of it, they don’t know how to shoot video with their cameras and vice versa. So you always assume, and I still get the question of, hey, why don’t you take pictures with the camera? And I said, I don’t know how I can do with my phone, but I don’t know how to do with the camera. So being able to learn that kind of stuff. But I like something that you hit on earlier was the ability, uh, we actually have some of that content kind of built out for you of of different things that you can find. Where is the best place for people to find that content?

Mike:                                          35:03                       So right now we’ve, uh, we launched the Two-Brain media website and so if you go to that and it’s a twobrainmedia.com if you head there, uh, on the upper right, you will see, learn to connect as our blog section and what’s in there right now. There’s nine articles and they’re just various different media tips and it covers everything from basic photography to linking your social media to your website to love letters, to how to create a quick video in 60 seconds that’s going to be bulked up. Chris and I have committed to pumping that up as much as we can. So there’s a constant stream of content for people. Uh, so that’s the first place to look. And uh, he’ll related to that. One of the other things that we want to do is we do want to create some things for uh, you know, for the Two-Brain family specifically where we can create, you know, really good lead magnets now, right? We’re trying to think of these things that we can give away to get people onto our mailing lists and so forth. So we’re working on creating more of that stuff that we can give to the, Two-Brain family. Uh, we have one that’s close, uh, that people can then use for free to put on their sites to generate leads. So we’re trying to create some, some things that are really a free resource for people if they’re struggling right now just to get started.

Greg:                                          36:06                       Excellent. So we will make sure that we link that in the show notes too so that people can jump right now. Now Mike, I want to say I saw which if people out there haven’t seen it yet will blink this in there as well. The video you created with your clientele, you created a video that basically was showing them with their, their work attire or, or, or their normal non gym attire. Uh, and then with their gym attire on and showing them, working out, showing them that, hey these are, these are the people that work out here that they’re just like anyone else creating those avatars. I thought it was amazing. What, what kind of sparked that catalyst tot actually building something like that out.

Mike:                                          36:41                       Yeah, there was a, a one of our Open theme nights, so we called it formal nights. So people obviously got points for dressing up and coming, you know, in we had five guys in Tuxedos for example. It was amazing and I really, I saw someone, I can’t remember the gym, so, uh, you know, full credit to whatever gym it was that I saw this, I saw them do a photo shoot in their gym and they just did like people in formal gowns. I think they had some fitness equipment in the background or the foreground or something like that. And I thought it was such a cool idea. And I was like, man, I love photography. Like that’s, I think if I wasn’t a writer I think I would try and be a photographer. So I wanted to try and recreate a photo shoot and at the very least I wanted my clients to come in and get a few of them dressed up to the nines with makeup and hair and nails and the whole thing and their best attire and leave with like a portrait.

Mike:                                          37:28                       And part of that is I want to get better at portrait photography. So it was a multipronged effort, but I wanted to see what else would happen after that. And my basic idea was before and after pictures. So they come in looking amazing and then they leave just, and it was great. It was the handstand pushup workout where everyone spent like five minutes upside down and then they staggered over. You got a picture with me with bloodshot eyes and red faces and sweat dripping. And I thought the effect is really cool. And even if it was related to a campaign I did on Instagram, if I think about a year ago where I took a tour of a number of people in the gym and then I just put their profession on the picture and I put it up on Instagram. And the idea was saying like, this guy is a bus driver, this guy’s an account, this guy’s a lawyer.

Mike:                                          38:07                       And the hope was was that bus drivers, accountants and lawyers out there would identify with it and say, wow, I’m that person. You know, it’s that whole relate-ability factor because as you know, so many times people see crossfit and they’re just like, I can’t do it. You know? And we know that’s wrong. Everyone can do crossfit. It’s not for everyone, but everyone can do it. I wanted people to, to see people, real people, smiling, happy people outside of that like gym, fitness, environment. And so we put up a sheet and I lit it up and we did portraits before and after. And then in the video that I put together, I did put in some workout stuff, but I prefaced it with a voiceover saying, you know, I don’t want you to look at these guys and immediately say, I can’t do this. I want you to just see smiling people, happy people, and know that they work out too, and if you’re, you know, if you’re like this guy, which you probably are, you can come to our gym. And that was the most important thing for me because I really, I don’t know how many times I’ve heard, I’m sure you’ve heard the same thing. I can’t do crossfit. That’s too hard for me and my, you know, we have 80 year old clients who do crossfit at their level.

Greg:                                          39:07                       Exactly, exactly. And I think that’s why I love that video so much is the ability to build out those avatars to look, hey, that’s me. Or Hey, I know somebody that’s looking for a gym that it relates to. That’s it. They are, they’re a lawyer. There are a doctor. And I thought it was an amazing, so we’ll make sure we link that in there too to that youtube video because I think it should spark some interest or, or even spark somebody to actually create their own for their gyms because I think it’s spot on. It’s exactly what gyms, uh, should be doing.

Mike:                                          39:33                       Give them some options like that where we have ideas. Like some of those people are struggling for ideas or concepts, you know, if I can just write up that concept and say, here’s what you need to do. You don’t, and maybe maybe you hire a photographer, maybe you don’t, but you just line up. So people take some pictures of them smiling, put it together in a video, here’s how you present it. And if we can do that for, you know, and gyms can copy those ideas, they can connect in their own markets and that would be fantastic if we could use, and that’s where we harness is kind of the creativity of the Two-Brain family to help everyone in the family generate some leads, find some clients that they can help.

Greg:                                          40:04                       No, I, I completely agree. Now, if, if gym owners, who listened to his podcast and they’re like, hey, I want to get, I want to get on the phone with Mike or I want to contact Mike cause I have an interest. Hey I would like to see them do this or, or any of that info. What’s the best way for them to reach out or to kind of be heard with a, their requests for us to build within this model of Two-Brain media because we, we really can go any routes. It doesn’t seem like there’s anything that would limit us, which ways we can go since, I mean you have so many connections and all the amazing people within the Two-Brain family, whether they’re doing photos or video or podcasts or blog posts or whatever medium it is, what’s the best way for them to reach out and kind of, uh, talk to you about that kind of stuff?

Mike:                                          40:44                       Yeah. The first place is twobrainmedia.com so on there you’ll see content, and buttons all over the place. Those all lead to my calendar and you can book an appointment to talk to me at any time. And I’ve talked to 20 of the people from the family already and it’s been amazing because I’ve, I’ve learned probably more from them than they’ve learned from me. But it’s really cool to see where some people are at. Some gym owners are very advanced with their media, some are not, but have amazing ideas. And so that’s a really cool thing. So I love talking to people about that. The other thing is in the, uh, in the Facebook group and it’s really cool there. Uh, I love it when people post media projects that they’re proud of or media projects that they want feedback on or just questions.

Mike:                                          41:20                       And one of the things I posted the other day, and like I’m trying to post as often as I can, instructional stuff in there, I posted something about imovie and how to use it to createhighlight reel videos. Someone immediately said, it might even have been you about, you know, what do I do with an android? And immediately five or 10 people jumped in and said, here’s a program I like, here’s a program I like, here’s a tip, here’s a tip. That sort of collective education is super powerful. And if there is a question that you have, you know, tag me, Tag Chris, tag a mentor. If it’s amedia related question, tag people in that group and we’ll respond. And then also you’ll have the community response. So I think those two places are really great thing and I would certainly love to see more of, the media that people are doing. I think they could post it. Like if someone creates a great video or concept or blog, throw it in the discussion group on Facebook and let’s, let’s take a look at it so other people can learn and then borrow ideas.

Greg:                                          42:10                       Excellent. Awesome. Mike, I want to say thank you so much, not only for starting this, this new avenue for, for gym owners and business owners to start creating the media that they want a or learn how to create the media that they wanted, that they need. So thank you so much. And then also thank you for your time for being able to jump on here and a kind of talk with me about uh, all the different things that we’re going to be doing within Two-Brain media and uh, the amazing story that you had and what you’ve done so far and I can’t wait to see what the future holds for us.

Mike:                                          42:40                       Yeah, it’s my pleasure. I’ve been so inspired a as a member of that group and the Two-Brain business group for so long to see all the cool stuff is in there and now I’m even more thrilled to be able to interact with people more in this role. So it’s, we’re really excited and we’ll have more information for everyone soon about what Two-Brain media will do.

Mike:                                          42:55                       Awesome. Thank you Mike.

Mike:                                          42:56                       Thanks Greg. All the best to you.

Speaker 6:                               43:00                       As always, thank you so much for listening to this podcast. We greatly appreciate you and everyone that has subscribed to us. If you haven’t done that, please make sure you do drop a light to that episode. Share with a friend and if you haven’t already, please write us a review and rate us on how what you think. If you hated it, let us know if you loved it even better.

Speaker 7:                               43:25                       You guys later.


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